WonderTour

Welcome to Lead Wisely by WonderTour.

In today's episode, we are having a part
two of our discussion of the movie Ford

versus Ferrari.

So let's start with a tough question about
leadership as usual.

Drew, if you're on a team or an
organization that is trying to make a

transformation or do something innovative,
do you need a radical innovator on the

team?

Yeah, that's good, Brian.

This is a question that I get a lot
working in transformation.

What do you do if you don't have an
innovator?

Do I need somebody who's a radical out
working on the edges?

In this example, like a Carol and a Ken
Miles type who is constantly like shoving

at the edges of the boundaries.

Like we have to go forward.

And I think the answer is that if you're
hoping to achieve transformation, yes, you

will need some type of person like that.

It will be very, very hard to go from
current state, state number one, where we

have a model and everything has governance
and processes and all this stuff to upkeep

it and sustain it to a new model where we
will take some of the things that we like

from the old system that are going to
still work, but they're going to be

arranged in a different way.

And there's going to be different higher
priorities might change in the new world

and stuff like that.

It just is really hard to break out of an
existing system.

that is meant to hold itself together.

It is designed to be robust and you need
somebody who's gonna help deconstruct it

and reconstruct it into what the future
state is going to be.

So to start off with, and this might be
tough for some people to accept, I do

think yes, you probably need a radical
innovator.

Now, the real question then becomes, how
do you get a radical innovator if you

don't have one?

Because I have a transformation, that's my
goal.

That's what I wanna do with my business.

but I don't currently feel like I have one
of those radical innovators inside of my

organization.

Alright, well, and so, so here, so I will
suggest that I totally agree with you,

Alright, well, and so, so here, so I will
suggest that I totally agree with you,

Alright, well, and so, so here, so I will
suggest that I totally agree with you,

like you're going to need somebody that is
passionate about change, that is

passionate about whatever the new thing is
that you're pursuing.

You're going to need somebody that's
completely on board with that to really

thrive.

thrive.

Chances are, depends on how big your team
is, but there's a good chance that you

have somebody that might be suitable for
that role on your team and you just don't

know it.

How would you identify them?

How do you find out if you have a radical
innovator on your team or if you have a

challenge in mind?

Maybe you're not as open-minded as Henry
Ford.

Maybe you're not as open-minded as Henry
Ford.

Maybe you're not as open-minded as Henry
Ford.

You're not like, give me any idea.

Maybe you've already decided on the
challenge.

We're gonna do a gen AI project.

We're gonna go investigate.

We're gonna stand up a business dashboard.

Whatever thing is that you want.

We're gonna investigate a whole new line
of business.

We're gonna have a new kind of product
that we wanna make.

How would you go about sensing whether or
not you've got somebody that is suitable

How would you go about sensing whether or
not you've got somebody that is suitable

for that job?

Yeah, so there's a couple of techniques
that I generally use to do that.

The first, if we're talking about just
sensing someone, obviously you look for

the challenger archetype.

You're looking for somebody who is pushing
back against things in a productive way.

Honestly, you might have to settle for
somebody like Ken Miles, who's pushing

back against things in a slightly less
productive or sometimes unproductive way.

And you might have to have some kind of a
liaison, a magnanimous leader who can help

facilitate the discussions with that
person.

But you're

you're looking for somebody who is like
the Han Solo archetype, right?

That's always pushing the boundaries and
challenging, like why can't we do things

differently?

That person, the person who's complaining
the loudest, but actually doing something

about it is the key.

You don't want just the person who
complains the loudest.

That's the person that isn't going to help
you, but the person who's complaining and

then is over here, like using duct tape
and cardboard and whatever they can find

to try to make a solution for this.

Those are the type of people that it's
scary to give them more influence in the

organization and more power for a lot of
people, especially when you're used to a

certain way and things have always been
this way and everything adheres to a

process and a standard.

But this person doesn't necessarily
operate that way because they know that

really like the number one rule of
business is no when to go outside of the

current rules and policies.

Right, and so this is, I think this is a
really important point, right, is that

you're looking for, you're looking for
people that are at least a couple of steps

They already see, if we talk about our,
you know, if we talk about our model for

They already see, if we talk about our,
you know, if we talk about our model for

limit breaks that we developed in some of
our previous episodes, right, this idea of

you have to start with, I'm dissatisfied
with the current state and I've got a new

mission, and you have to go through the,
like, I've got some realization of how to

take those steps and aligning that with
the organization.

before you can get to the breakthrough
parts.

Look for people that are some ways, part
way down that process already, that are

already dissatisfied, that are already
trying to get aligned, that are already

trying to realize what it's gonna take to
succeed.

People that are passionate about it, or
people that are, do it for a hobby, or

people that are, in this movie, people
that are associated with your

organization, but maybe not part of it,
but look like really good candidates.

So Ford Motor Company's looking for
somebody to run a race team, they're like,

well.

We don't really have a, you know, in-house
LeMans winning race team, but we have this

guy, Carroll Shelby, who's got a small
business that buys engines from us and has

previously won LeMans.

So like, all right, great.

He's part way down the road in a couple of
different ways.

He's already associated with Ford and he's
already good at the thing that we want.

So let's talk to him.

We talked to him and Carroll Shelby says,
oh yeah, sure.

That'd be great, but I can't drive the car
anymore.

And I'm not in this, you know, I'm not at
this level anymore, but

I know a person that I used to work with
named Ken Miles, and he is an incredible

mechanic at making cars better, and he's a
really, really fast driver who's 100%

committed to winning races.

Like, those are things we need.

He's a couple steps down the path.

So look for those people in your orbit who
are potential innovators, who are maybe

already just kind of doing it for fun, or
already just kind of can't help

themselves, that are trying to take those
steps, and see if there's a way to empower

them to take those steps with more
resources.

as part of the organization, as part of
the bigger team.

I think that's definitely a potential,
right?

I think that's definitely a potential,
right?

I think that's definitely a potential,
right?

If you don't have the person that's just
like walked into your office and said, we

should go in Lamans and I have experience
and I personally will do it for you and

this is exactly the plan and here's what
you need to sign on the line.

It's very unlikely that you're gonna get
that in your business innovation

challenge.

Yeah, and I would add that, okay, let's
say you've done that and you can't figure

it out.

You're like, well, I don't know if I have
it.

I can't get through to middle management
or whoever is there to actually find the

person that I need who's this challenger.

Then even the first step in the journey is
to just do something basically that tries

to draw those type of people out into the
organization, retain them in the

organization, which is like leading with a
vision and empowering the team.

So like the next best thing you can do if
you can't find that person is to try to

create an organization that feels
empowered where people feel that it's okay

to bring new ideas to Henry Ford and say,
hey, we should try this.

We should go build this racing team.

Hey, yeah, I'm, I'll, in Carol's
situation, I'll do it for you, but I'm not

doing it your way.

That's the type of thing you want to hear
out of these type of people because that,

they're, they already know you don't know
the answer to this.

and they necessarily don't know exactly
the answer, but they're willing to iterate

their way through to a solution.

And they're going to start to believe in
you if you are iterating along with them

and you're starting to say, okay, well, we
don't need a hundred percent of a plan of

how to win Le Mans today, but let's at
least start investing into Shelby and the

racing team and get something started.

Let's at least start investing into some
new business plan projects or whatever

that are going to try to do this
transformation.

Even if we fail, we'll at least learn
something and perhaps we'll draw out.

types of people that are going to actually
be able to succeed.

types of people that are going to actually
be able to succeed.

All right, so it sounds like we're
starting to get a team in place.

That seems like a good place to introduce
episode 106 of Wonder Tour.

So I'm Brian Nutwell, and we're on a
journey to become better leaders by

So I'm Brian Nutwell, and we're on a
journey to become better leaders by

touring these fantastic worlds and
inspiring lore by going on a WonderTour.

We connect leadership concepts to story
context because it sticks to our brains

better.

You can find out more at
wondertorpodcast.com.

Yes, you can.

And so that's what we're doing here today.

We've got Ford versus Ferrari.

We've got a movie about a large
organization trying to figure out how to

empower a small piece of the organization
to do a thing that is very different than

what they do for a living.

So in our last episode, we talked a lot
about what that looks like from top down.

If you're Henry Ford, how do you find a
Carroll Shelby and how do you support them

And he does it eventually well, but
initially poorly, right?

And he does it eventually well, but
initially poorly, right?

Now we're looking at from the bottom up,
okay, great, you're Carol Shelby, you've

been empowered to do something radical,
but you need to find the team to do it,

and you need to make it actually happen.

You've got a crazy goal.

You've got, if you're lucky, you have a
blank check from Ford Motor Company.

Most of us don't, right?

But maybe you've got a couple of people
who are skilled, but difficult to manage.

So now we have to develop this high
performing team that does something

radical.

And that's going to involve doing things
you don't know how to do.

Right.

So what does that look like?

What are some, what are some techniques
you can use to try to start pulling that

What are some, what are some techniques
you can use to try to start pulling that

team together or start even figuring out
like which, you know, we started talking

about surfacing the people that you want
on the team, what, what's different about

that than a, than a sustaining model of
operations.

Well, and I think truly if we move towards
business agility, we're trying to create a

model that can do both of these things.

And we're still in like the emergent
stages of that, I would say in the world,

trying to build a better model that can
actually handle both innovation and

sustainment of the current operations,
that can handle development and

operations, if you will.

But I wouldn't say that has been, yeah.

together and call it like DevOps or
something.

That'd be great.

You're right.

And so people, DevOps, people are trying
to apply everywhere, but that's a

different story for a different day.

Here, we're just talking about people
leadership and how to empower a team and

how to build a high performing radical
team.

And it starts with giving the team the
ability to have some of their own values

to me.

So if you look at this team that Carol's
building, Ford Motor Company has their

values and they can't stray too far away
from those values because then they're not

the Ford racing team.

But

At the same time, if you just give them
those values, all they're ever going to do

is probably matriculate back to the
average of where we're currently at.

Even if you have high performing
individuals.

So I think giving those individuals the
power to develop their own shared value

system on the team, where in this example,
like they value quick iteration, they

value tactile response, you know, hands on
team to team working together, quickly,

quickly learning and iterating and
growing.

They value, you see this with Carol and
with Ken, they value conflict.

The two guys fight and they're like, oh,
it's been a couple of years since we had

an all out brawl like this basically, like
you wanna fight again?

And I'm not saying that in your
organization, you know, the norm should be

everybody yelling at each other and
throwing punches, but that level of

conflict for this type of a goal is what
they need.

They have to like be passionate and if
they're not passionate, they're not going

to win the race.

So sometimes that passion is going to lead
them to battle each other.

And as long as that's done in a productive
way, where at the end they're both sipping

their drink and sitting out there like
icing their faces together or whatever,

right?

Like it takes different forms in different
teams, but I think giving the team the

ability to do those sort of things, I
mean, that's gonna be absolutely critical.

In addition to the things we talked about
in our last episode, like, hey, you need

to give the decision-making to the level
of the information.

to give the decision-making to the level
of the information.

Don't appoint.

some business executive to make all the
decisions who doesn't know about racing.

Right.

So I love there's a moment in here pretty
early on when they first, they've kind of

talked Ken into being part of this team.

So the Ken Miles character is a very
difficult personality.

He's kind of abrasive.

He really just wants to drive really fast.

He's a brilliant mechanic.

He's very sensitive to the vehicles, but
he's not very good with people and he's

not very good with, you know, obstacles
involving process.

They talked about being on the team, they
bring him out to the airport, they pull

the wraps off this brand new car that they
just flew over from England, the first

prototype of the GT40.

And he gets in it and he drives it around
for a little while and does much crazy

stuff on the airport, then he comes back
and he gets out, I was like, what do you

think?

And he recites this long list of like,
it's terrible at all these things.

This is the air, the air pressure no good,
the brakes aren't working and the engine's

okay, the gearing's all wrong and da

As a leader, you get that negative
feedback from your hot shot employee that

you've just empowered.

Like, they say all these bad things about
your product and about your direction.

Like, your initial reaction is like, oh
man, we're doomed or you're such a jerk.

Why am I even listening to you?

Like, this is, you know.

And Carol Shelby's like, knows him well
enough to just like step back and he's

like, okay.

Anything else?

He's like, I'm not sure.

And he gets back in the car and he goes
out again.

Like, not misunderstanding.

Like, he's identified all these problems
and he's...

already thinking about the solutions and
he's already committed to making it

better.

He's like, I'm gonna go find more problems
so we can fix those too.

Like he just gets in the car like he's in.

Recognizing that interaction, that
reaction you got back from this person was

not we are doomed or I hate this, but now
I'm super engaged and I'm starting to

identify the problems and I'm starting to
write them down and I've got this now

we've got a list of things that we can do
where we can actually make progress.

I've got a baseline and we can go.

And that's actually

that could have been handled as a
leadership skill, Carroll could have

handled that a lot more poorly, right?

He could have left this jerk out of the
team in the first place, because he's a

jerk, where he could have invited him into
the team, but then really squashed him

when he tried to raise ideas or
objections.

But instead he recognizes like, oh, this
is the skill set I need.

I need somebody that will fix all the
problems now so that the problems don't

happen on the racetrack, so that the car
keeps getting faster, so that we keep

iterating.

So talk to me about this iteration.

What's our, what does this look like in
this movie?

What's our, what does this look like in
this movie?

Yeah, so I think this kind of is bringing
us up to our mountaintop and this is the

key to being able to get past blockers is
iteration.

So one thing phrase that I coined recently
that still doesn't really make sense, but

I make sense to me is iteration is the
currency of learning.

So if you're trying to get people who can
learn rapidly, learn faster than the

competition is learning, then they have to
be running tight iterations.

And so I think it's setting an expectation
with that team and developing a culture

where those quick iterations are happening
is the most critical thing you can do.

It is not to have the perfect plan.

The perfect plan will never survive
contact with the opposing force, right?

What is instead the best thing to do is to
set an expectation and begin developing a

culture of quick iterations.

I've seen a lot of this recently as we've
gone through, I've gone through a lot of

these transformations personally where...

you know, it's great.

A consultant can come in and tell you,
here's all the best practices in the world

and developing a race car in this example
or whatever, developing software and

developing HR practices, whatever you're
doing.

But really, those things are great only up
into a point, only up into, are we

actually iterating?

Are we actually learning?

So let's wind our way up to our
mountaintop here and talk about a concrete

example in Ford versus Ferrari of those
quick iterations of learning.

Brian, do you wanna talk about this?

moment for us.

I do, but I want to set it up a little bit
more concrete around what you just said,

because I love this.

This movie, this analogy, right?

Driving a lap around a racetrack is an
iteration, right?

This is one, we did one cycle of the car
did all the things that it was supposed to

do.

You have a very high level metric, which
is lap time, right?

The person with the stopwatch on the wall
can tell you whether or not the iteration

overall went better.

Like did the car get faster or not?

The person with the stopwatch on the wall
cannot tell you how the car felt.

They cannot tell you how much power it
made, how hot the tires got, whether or

not it started to oversteer or understeer,
like all of this stuff.

And so what we see in this moment is Ken
Miles, who is very, very deep into the

process, right?

He's very intuitive about driving cars.

He's very skilled at driving cars.

He's very skilled as a mechanic.

He's driving his car around a couple laps
around the racetrack.

He's doing his iteration and he comes back
and he says...

There's air getting trapped into the hood.

There's an aerodynamic problem that's
causing us drag, which means we're not

getting going as fast as we want to.

And they're not seeing in the data
acquisition system that the Ford guys have

brought in, and they're really skeptical.

And they argue back and forth a little
bit.

And again, Carroll Shelby, as our
archetype of leader here, he's like, all

right, we're gonna run the experiment.

We're gonna trust that your intuition is
right.

And we're gonna, what's the cheapest,
quickest, dirtiest, stupidest thing we

could do to check that?

So they get a ball yarn and they tape a
bunch of string all over the car and he

goes and drives around the track again,
they're standing there with their, you

know, with their binoculars and they're
watching these pieces of string stand

straight up at speed where the air is
getting pushed out of the hood and you

know, getting trapped into the car and
causing drag.

And even the engineer, you know, they
ripped the data out of the car, but even

the engineer that was, you know, running
the acquisition system is like, oh yeah,

look at that, he was right, the
aerodynamics are messed up, right?

And so they've got, they've got a
hypothesis.

They figure out a really quick and dirty
way to go just check the hypothesis.

Does this make sense?

Oh, this hypothesis does make sense.

Well, now we're going to go a bunch of, go
do a bunch of hardcore engineering, right?

We're going to go design a part.

We're going to change the layout of
something where you change the shape of

something like where, you know, this is
not just going to be solved with duct

tape, but, but running that iteration with
whatever sensors you can get into it,

that'll tell you that'll look exactly what
you're going on.

That's the mountaintop, right?

progress through whatever means is
necessary by this quick iteration, trust

your experts, but then find a way to
validate what they're saying, and once you

think you know what's going on, fix that
problem and move on to the next one.

That is the soul of innovation with
unknown constraints, unknown, you know,

unknown problems, but a known desire to.

And this is what you see oftentimes called
lean startup.

When you run a lean startup, everything is
just fast iterations, the quickest

learning cycles that you possibly can get.

You wanna get feedback from the customer
as often as possible.

And so the old systems oftentimes end up
assuming that they know what the customer

needs and hey, we're just trying to get
the customer to this.

needs and hey, we're just trying to get
the customer to this.

If we just get this metric right, it'll
just make the customer happy.

But assumedly in a transformation,

There's unknown information and we need
that information.

You know, the more of that information we
can get earlier, the better.

So running those early iterations, you
know, that buys us learnings that buys us

that information.

So that example that you just illustrated
is perfect.

It's just a micro example of how they're
applying it in racing.

So how can you apply that in your
business?

How can you empower your teams to apply
that level of quick iteration?

I think one thing is if you're a top
leader,

setting the expectation with the team that
what will be rewarded is effort.

What will be rewarded is learning, not
necessarily documents and plans and all

that kind of stuff.

No, what I wanna know is what works and
what doesn't work, what satisfies the

customer, what provides value, and how,
you know, is it feasible?

Can we actually do it?

Have we tested, have we test driven if the
model works for this?

Have we test driven if this subsystem of
the vehicle is going to allow us to...

achieve our overall goal of certain lap
time or certain ability to corner,

whatever, right?

That progress through iteration really is
the key to developing that lean agile

enterprise.

And again, I love this example because it
gives you the analogy.

You still tie it back to lap time.

It's great.

We learned that the car has a drag
problem.

We went from intuition to sort of
validated something great.

Now we're going to run another experiment
where we're going to change something so

we can make the aerodynamics better.

We didn't learn anything real until the
car got faster.

If the lap time goes down because you
changed the aerodynamics or because then

you learned something, then you made
progress.

That's the kind of innovation that you're
doing.

And so it's not to say that the high level
metrics of customer value or sales numbers

or website clicks or whatever aren't
valuable.

They totally are.

That's your stopwatch.

You need that.

But that's not enough insight to decide
how to make something better.

Right, so you need experts, you need
intuition, and you need detailed

observations of what's happening at the
ground, on the track, rubber meeting the

road, whatever analogy you like, right?

That's what you need.

That's what you need.

So I love...

So like historical example, right, in the
software industry, 20 years ago, the state

of the art for delivering software was
mailing people a CD, right?

I go to Best Buy and I buy a video game
and it's in a box and I stick it into my

computer and I have a video game on my
computer and I can play it.

And if it's got bugs or if they wanna
release a new module, then I gotta go to

Best Buy and I gotta buy another box with
another CD in it, right?

That was, there was a limit to how fast
you can iterate that product.

That was, there was a limit to how fast
you can iterate that product.

There's a limit to how fast you can learn
from your customers.

Fast forward to today now, and you've got
online software that is running A-B

experiments all the time on features.

You've got Amazon.com that's constantly
checking to see what you respond better to

in terms of how information is presented
to, what color buttons you're more likely

to click on, and which kind of products
are better connected to others.

We're learning from...

customer behavior is much in a much more
fine grain, much more iterative, much

faster cadence all the time.

And those things that used to be a
sustainable competitive advantage, like I

just shipped the best piece of software
are no longer sustainable.

So everybody has to be iterating that
fast.

But we see that happening every day now,
right?

The pace of change, the pace of
improvements is enabled by the other pace

of improvements.

And so it's just very, it's much, much
faster.

Well, I mean, you even see it in F1 racing
and racing at large, right?

Even if you just take the software, like
pure digital consumer goods and stuff out

of it, it's true in racing, right?

These race teams have to move so much
faster now.

They're able to catch up to each other.

It doesn't take them years to catch up to
each other in terms of technology or

techniques and stuff like that.

It only takes them months.

Yeah, you can take pictures of somebody
else's side pod and try to deduce their

dynamics, but if you don't have their
process for testing the nuances and

getting into the car very quickly, you can
stay ahead, but you're staying ahead with

process.

You're not staying ahead with anything
static.

So, yeah.

So let's talk about these, what are the
lessons from what we see Carol Shelby

doing, trying to run his little team in
the context of this giant company?

We've already seen, they finally had to
give them enough air cover

get the right car and spend the money on
changing the car and push the limits on

the rules and put the pure racer behind
the wheel.

Like, you know, we saw that in our last
episode but what's Carol doing at a

granular level?

What do we learn from him about how to run
this team?

Yeah, so that was kind of the team of
teams level that we talked about there.

How do you get your teams, all of your
teams moving in a direction empowered to

make the types of decisions and run quick
iterations and stuff.

Now, if we were to take it down to like a
team level almost here, now you're looking

at, okay, we have some different
archetypes of leaders that are here.

Right.

We already talked in the first episode
about Henry Ford.

He's kind of a visionary archetype who
just gives wide swath.

this is the direction we need to go.

I need your help to figure out what we're
gonna do to get there.

You have the Ford execs like Leo Beebe,
who's like, he's the upkeeper of the old

system.

He likes the current position that he is
in.

Again, there's nothing wrong with being in
that type of a spot, unless it's hurting

other people, unless it's really creating
inefficiencies that are leading to bad

things for the world, for society,
whatever, right?

But...

That's what how Leo operates.

And that's how you're going to see a large
portion of top management, middle

management operate like a Leo BB.

But then what we really want to focus on
as we get to kind of the team level here

is Carol.

Carol is the kind of the lead behind the
team of teams, right?

So he has different teams of people that
are working on, uh, different parts of the

vehicle and stuff like that.

And the way that he operates.

is he's trying to empower those radical
leaders.

He's supporting them, he's defending them,
he's buying them time, he's staking his

entire company on them at times because he
believes that the only real way that

they're gonna make a breakthrough is by
having this combination of this highly

capable, highly passionate, driven towards
the objective that actually can create

value, that combination of things.

Those are the people that we focus on.

We put as much energy as possible behind
them and then keep everybody else moving

around them and then try to give other
people a sense of personal purpose inside

the large purpose.

So you kind of get this relationship
between Carol and Ken where they are good

friends, obviously, but Carol is
constantly having to try to work Ken two

ways.

He's trying to make Ken more presentable
and make Ken more of a leader.

Like, Ken, come on, man.

Like, you have to at some point shape up.

but then he's also operating as a good
leader where he's not shifting the

mission.

So at the end of Le Mans, what happens?

You get this underhanded approach that Leo
comes in with, and he doesn't want Ken to

actually get the satisfaction of winning,
so he's trying to get them to all finish

at the same time, which he knows will
cause Ken not actually to get the first

place prize that he deserves.

So what does Carol do?

Carol comes in.

And he's like, Ken, you know what the
mission is.

The mission is to win the race.

I'm telling you that this is the
direction, you know, they're relapsing a

little bit, they want to do a certain
thing, but it's up to you.

I'm not changing the mission on you.

That's a good leader is not going to
change the mission on the last, at the

last minute on you and make you feel like,
why did I even do this in the first place?

They're going to empower the team to make
the decision.

What are you going to do in this
situation?

You own the results and the consequences,
but you get the choice.

Yeah, so that's, so the Carol playbook is,
like you said, when you're in that

position protecting and guiding the
leadership team, you kind of got, you're

facing both ways, right?

So we see him facing upward.

He is fiercely protective of the team.

Like he will go to bat for them.

He will go yell at anybody he needs to
yell at.

He will, you know, lie, cheat, steal.

You know, it's a little unethical.

But you know, so he will.

And he presents to Henry Ford, he
presents, I am so committed to this, I'll

put my own company on the line.

Like, I am 100% on board with this mission
that we're doing together.

Right, so that's what he does facing
outward.

Facing inward, he's very empowering.

He's very like, the people with the good
ideas, if you have an insight, let's test

your insight, let's run the iterations,
like he picks great people.

Who do I know that would be awesome?

I'm gonna put them in the position, and
then we're going to.

you know, kind of run this very
collaborative, very iterative shop.

And I will empower people to the best that
I can.

I will put them in the best positions that
I possibly can to succeed.

Um, and so maintaining those two mindsets
of like, how do you represent the team and

protect the team?

How do you represent the company's mission
down to the team, but still sort of let

them, let them do their thing.

It's a delicate balancing act and we see
it succeeding and failing in a couple of

different ways.

And we see the recognition that he's
putting not only himself at risk, his

company and his time and his reputation,
but also putting his people, you know,

their time and their reputation and in the
context of racing their actual lives at

risk.

Right.

And you're not forcing them into that.

You are picking the people that are going
to do it anyway.

You're getting them so excited about the
mission that they're just going off and

taking the risks of their own volition and
you're doing your best to protect them.

Well, you're giving them what we always
talk about, Brian, which is clarity and

competence.

Clarity to the mission and the purpose of
what you're trying to achieve, and

competence to be able to handle the
information and the iterations, to be able

to manage the resources that they're
given, so that the team can truly be

empowered and autonomous without creating
misalignment across your organizational

goals.

And that is the job of somebody who
manages and leads a team of teams.

They have to have good enough clarity into
what you're doing.

And then they have to give good enough and
help the team develop good enough

competence so that they can, can handle
that autonomy that you're going to give

them to go forth and iterate and spend
money and do things and talk to the

customers and, and not shield them from
all of those types of things.

I love, we always, we've gone back many
times to the David Marquet, submarine

I love, we always, we've gone back many
times to the David Marquet, submarine

captain, you know, what is it's called
greatness on a submarine or whatever, but

it's probably the greatest like eight
minute video on leadership you'll ever

see.

And in part of that video, he talks about
how, what we want in the organization is

people who can make the types of decisions
that the CEO would make.

And if they don't make the type of
decision the CEO would make, they make a

better one.

That's what you want.

I think that's a good place to leave it,
honestly.

I think we've, you know, interrogating
this movie, like we said, Ford versus

Ferrari, the racing is a great analogy for
the challenge of innovation, the challenge

of iteration towards success.

You know, you can use this lap time
mentality and this iteration mentality,

but the lessons of you need the radical
innovators, the lessons of progress

through innovation, the lessons of
empowering people to make decisions the

lowest level possible.

come up in a lot of context, but they're
really, they shine well in this movie.

And we see the challenges that Henry Ford
has as a top level leader and that Carol

Shelby has as a mid-level leader are very
instructive.

It's very easy to picture ourselves in
those kinds of situations.

So if, and recognize which one you are,
right?

If you're in charge of a big organization,
you have to be the deuce.

You can't be Carol Shelby.

You don't have that time.

You've got to be over the big stuff.

But if you're on the radical innovation
team, then you've got to walk that

balance.

And you've got to sort of ruthlessly get
to the iterative innovation at the ground

level as fast as you can.

Yep.

And you got to get buying with the team,
develop that rapport.

We see so many different examples of that,
whether it's with Phil with the guy who

props to like locks the second door on Leo
when he's trying to get out.

It's like the team already, that's a
perfect example of what we just talked

It's like the team already, that's a
perfect example of what we just talked

about, right?

Like he makes the decision that the CEO
would have made basically is that he

already knows he doesn't need direction.

He just goes and does because he's like, I
see what's happening here.

I know what our purpose is.

And I know that this is going to help us
to achieve our purpose.

I'm not asking permission.

And that's the tricky part.

And that's the tricky part.

It's, I just want to end on this.

What the last key takeaway, if you want to
talk about empowering the radical

innovator, helping them to achieve
progress through iteration, making sure

that they have the competency to succeed
and the clarity to make sure they're going

the right direction, that's going to
provide value and that's going to solve

problems versus create problems, then it's
going to be uncomfortable.

No matter what role you're playing,
whether you're playing the Ken Miles role

of like this technical innovator, whether
you're playing the Carol role.

of kind of the team of teams leader,
trying to get everybody going in this

direction, protecting them, empowering
them, or whether you're playing the Henry

Ford role of the kind of sponsor of all of
this operation.

It's going to be uncomfortable.

There's going to be days where you just
want to beat the crap out of Ken Miles if

you're Carol or whatever, because they're
just not cooperating with you.

There's gonna be days like if you're Henry
Ford, where you're like, no, maybe we

should just go back to the old way and put
the business executives in charge again.

but you can't go backwards.

That's the key.

Just recognizing that, that you have those
feelings, that they're legitimate

feelings, but that tomorrow I'm gonna wake
up, hold my head up again and try it again

the new way.

So yes, you need the radical innovators on
your team.

And if you're not uncomfortable, you're
probably not innovating hard enough.

Awesome.

Love it.

I love it.

Thanks for that, Drew.

Thank you everyone who has joined us.

We really appreciate you watching with us
as always.

Alright, we'll look forward to having you
with us next week where we are going to

visit a newly released movie, Oppenheimer.

In the meantime, hope you have a great
week.

Thanks as always.

And just remember, as always, Character is
Destiny.