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Welcome to Lead Wisely by Wondertour.

We're in a series where we're looking at leadership qualities of villains.

In this episode, we're going to be talking about Sylva in 007 Skyfall.

In this episode, we're going to be talking about Sylva in 007 Skyfall.

In this episode, we're going to be talking about Sylva in 007 Skyfall.

So Brian, it's time for a tough question about leadership.

In this movie, we see Bond and Silva as the villain being shown as foils of each other.

I mean, we get the mirrors right from the beginning in the intro to the movie.

You're being told Bond is going to see his mirror form.

So how does Bond avoid the same fate that we see Silva go through where he becomes this
bitter man who

is seeking vengeance and revenge after he goes through this traumatic experience, which of
course we see Bond go through right at the beginning where technically betrays him or at

least almost kills him.

And both of them have this opportunity, okay, what do you do going forward after you get
betrayed?

Right.

So of course, our most, one of our most used phrases here on Wonder Tour is this idea that
character is destiny, that your, you know, your fate is more strongly influenced by the

So of course, our most, one of our most used phrases here on Wonder Tour is this idea that
character is destiny, that your, you know, your fate is more strongly influenced by the

kind of choices that you make and the basis for your choices than it is by almost anything
else.

And certainly in a storytelling context, we see that over and over again.

And I think in this movie, it applies especially strongly and we actually see it in their
very first interaction.

We get an hour and a half in this movie before we even meet the villain, right?

He's doing all these things off screen and they're trying to figure out who he is and why
he's doing what he's doing, what's behind all these machinations.

And then finally we have this fabulous monologue scene where the elevator door is open and
Bond's tied up in this room full of servers.

And Silva walks towards him monologuing the entire time, this ridiculous story about the
rats on the island and sort of the inevitability of character being driven by your

experiences.

Right from the gate, like that's his whole gig is like, I've been turned into this
horrible creature because of my traumatic experiences and you and I are the same and we're

just these two rats that are, you know, that are doomed to.

the alpha rats.

That's his whole worldview right there, right?

His whole worldview is that circumstances are destiny, experiences are destiny.

And so he's making fun of Bon.

He's like, look at you, you're pathetic, you're falling apart, you're held together by
your pills and your drink.

And Bon right up front is like, well, don't forget about my pathetic love of country.

Right.

And that's kind of the whole tension right there is Silva doesn't even recognize that as a
thing.

As far as we can tell, he never had it in the first place and he super doesn't now.

He's completely motivated by not even self-enrichment or power.

He's just motivated by revenge.

He's just trying to get back at the people that hurt him.

And he assumes that everybody else is basically the same.

He assumes that that's why he was hurt in the first place is because somebody was
protecting themselves.

He assumes that bond should be the same and just doesn't realize how the world really
works.

And the thing that he doesn't get about

character is destiny.

The thing that he doesn't get about Bond is that Bond actually believes in the big
picture.

He actually believes in the mission.

He believes that despite his terrible experience, that what was doing was trying to take
care of as many people as possible in the best way possible.

And that, you know, he suffered for it, but he doesn't, you know, he's a little salty
about it, but he comes back when he finds out that there's trouble, he comes back and he's

willing to sacrifice himself over and over again on the altar of this greater mission.

And that's the lesson we see.

all the time, right?

That's the lesson we see over and over again in WONDER TOUR is that the characters that we
view as heroic, the characters we view as leaders or mentors that we aspire to be or

aspire to have are the ones who are willing to put self-sacrifice forward in service of a
greater mission, in service of taking care of and protecting others.

And so what we see, especially in the back half of this movie, once they finally come
together, once Bond finally figures out what's going on,

is we see over and over again, Bond prioritizing taking care of others and being willing
to sacrifice himself and go through painful experiences to do that.

And we see Silva escalating in whatever direction he can to just try to get revenge, to
try to hurt a couple of very specific people, but not really caring about collateral

damage.

And that's really the dichotomy is just, they have the same experience.

They have the same basis.

They have overlapping skills, but Bond.

believes in something and Silva super doesn't.

Yeah, you said it right from the get go.

doesn't understand that character is destiny.

Silva has this misconception that his destiny is already set and that he's just the rat in
the cage.

That's it.

And he's just got to fight his way to the top.

And then he's going to be let out into the world.

That story is super victim, right?

He doesn't see himself like we talked about in the last episode, as having any agency.

And as a result, he starts to view everybody else in that same light.

where Bond hears that story and he doesn't assume that that's how things are going to play
out.

He's like, well, okay, but my character determines how things play out.

And oftentimes as we talk about on Wonder Tour, the way that we develop character is by
putting forth effort, making self sacrifices, things like that, right?

We have, if you want to cultivate character, then you have to do it for the good of
others.

We have, if you want to cultivate character, then you have to do it for the good of
others.

At least if you want to cultivate it in a good direction and

that will form destiny, that will allow you to win when it's really difficult to get the
win, to accomplish the mission, and that's how we see it playing out at the end.

mean, that last scene where Sylva has such conflict, when he's like, all right, he's
finally been through the ringer here and he has the chance to finally kill and he can't

even really do it, he's trying to force her to do it.

Because he doesn't, like you said, doesn't know what he wants.

He's just been playing this out.

He literally just feels like he's a pawn in a game and everybody else's pawns in the game.

And it all leads up to this.

And then in the moment it's empty.

He realizes there's nothing there.

No, that's amazing.

I didn't even think about this, you know, but the, the, that very final scene, what he's
trying to do is he's trying to get her to kill them both, right?

He's trying to get to shoot them both.

Like he literally can't imagine for a future, a future for himself after, after he's taken
his revenge, because he has no other goals.

has no even idea that he could go make another change in the world.

Right.

Which is completely opposite from where, you know, and Bond are coming from, right?

When, when they're.

when earlier in the movie when they're being kind of raked over the coals for the various
failures and she's been told it's about time for her to retire.

She's like the hell with dignity.

I'll leave when the job's done.

Like she's like, she's all about the job.

She's all about like we're taking care of people.

We're trying to make things safe.

We're trying to solve the problems in the world.

And that's never done.

I'll stop when that's done, but it will never be done.

And Bond takes a little vacation to recover from his wounds.

but when it comes down to it, he's like, yeah, the job's not done.

Like I got to go back and do the job.

The other, you know, if other people were taking care of the job and maybe, okay.

But when it's clear that the job isn't getting done, he comes back.

And so he, so he'll never stop, right?

He will, he'll do all the ridiculous things.

He'll sacrifice everything on the altar, you know, of, getting the job.

Yeah, Bond exhibits one of the leadership superpowers that we look up to, which is
sacrifice.

All right, Brian, well, let's set up the intro and then let's come back and talk more
about how we can follow in the footsteps of Bond rather than becoming like Silva.

Hi, I'm Brian Lutwell.

And we are on a journey to lead wisely, to become better leaders by touring fantastic
worlds and inspiring lore by going on a

We connect leadership concepts to story context because it sticks to our brains better.

You can find out more at wondertourpodcast.com or by searching us on YouTube, Lead Wisely,
All One Word.

So yeah, let's talk about where this story goes.

So in our last episode, we talked about Silva's very elaborate plan and leveraging the
complexities of the system and manipulating people into doing the things that he wanted

and setting himself up into the situation that he wanted, which was to get very close to
him so he could exact his painful revenge, right?

So he does all of these things.

And the one thing that...

prevents him from fully succeeding is that he sort of assumes that everybody else is a
pawn of the system and that they're going to behave in a predictable way.

And Bond, who is in the system, but not very attached to it, like Bond's a terrible
employee.

He's not disgruntled.

He just doesn't really like rules very much.

And so he's kind of not a very reliable employee.

But those personalities can be useful when things aren't going well, when the system
doesn't work and you need somebody to improvise, you need somebody to have a different

perspective.

You need somebody to just like take some...

authority and go make something happen.

That's a useful viewpoint to have and bonds that kind of character is like, okay, great.

I, the system isn't working for us.

It's being taken advantage of.

We are going to remove ourselves from the system entirely.

Like we're, we are out.

And it puts him in this interesting role.

So he's like, all right, well now I'm going to, I'm going to ditch the company car.

I'm going to take my ancient car, which doesn't have a tracking device on it.

And I'm going to ditch all of London and we're going to drive to my childhood home in
Scotland, which I haven't been back to since I was orphaned.

And we're going to go super old school on how we approach this problem.

He kind of abandons technology.

He abandons the complexities of the system.

He abandons the infighting that's happening between the different factions and MI6 and the
government and the oversight and parliament and everything like that.

Like he's just like, none of that stuff is helping me.

What I'm going to lean into is getting to pick the terms on which we do things.

And I'm going to lean into people that I trust, which is a very small list of people at
this point.

He takes even though she's the one that had him shot at the beginning of the movie.

He's, you know, he's turned into this interesting sort of caregiver role.

He's taking her with him.

And then they meet up with this gamekeeper Kincaid that's still at his estate.

You know, he presumably hasn't seen for 25 years, but they, they have a warm trusting
relationship.

And so we have a very small cadre of, know, he's got people that he trusts in an
environment that he's selected.

That's completely devoid of any of the complex systems that he thinks can be taken
advantage of.

And that's his choice of how to.

sort of step away from this risk.

And I think the interesting part that we're going to pull apart here is not only that, not
only does he flip the script, he goes back and he, as we normally see with a of these

As we normally see with these heroes, he takes and inverts what the villain is doing
against them.

As we talked about last episode, what is Silva good at?

Silva was good at taking that complex system and creating a pull mechanism out of it to
accomplish his simple goal.

And now Bond does him one better.

He completely breaks the system entirely.

He doesn't just create a pull by leveraging the existing system.

Like you said, Bond is the breaker of the system.

He's the one who sees the mission.

way above the process.

He's like, Hey, I, will much sooner just completely violate the process.

If it's going to help us to achieve our end goal, I don't really care.

And the way that he does that is it connects the organization's goals and the
organization's current state with his personal goals and current state, because he goes

back to skyfall.

He goes back to this childhood home where he, assumedly or

based on what we're seeing in the movie hasn't been in a long, long, long time based on
his interaction with Kincaid.

He's going back to this place with bad memories.

He has, of course, he has bad memories.

You know, this was his home before he was an orphan.

And it's this willingness to do something that Silva was not willing to do.

Silva is

all about running away from his problems and trying to complete this revenge narrative
where Bond is running towards his problems.

Like I'm going to have to go deal with this myself.

I'm going to have to dig deep into myself in order to solve this problem, which means I
have to go to a painful place.

And I don't want to become like Silva.

The way that I become like Silva is running away from Skyfall, not running to Skyfall.

And in doing so, he also

He breaks out of the predictiveness that he had been in.

He does something different than what Silva had been expecting because Silva, all he knows
is running away.

All he knows is that we're all rats anyway, and so we're going to do what's best for us.

But that's not what Bon does in the situation.

No, that's really good.

And I think that's a good point that, you know, okay, I'm going leave the system behind.

I'm going to change the terms of the engagement, but it's not like they're going to go
hide out on the beach in Indonesia where he was at the beginning of the movie.

Right.

It's not like, it's not like we're, we're trying to get away.

He's still trying to accomplish the mission.

It's like, we need to neutralize this threat.

need to, we need to take care of this problem.

We're going to force them to come to us and do it on our terms.

Right.

So.

know, Sola does it in the typical sort of technology heavy escalation.

I've got 20 guys and a helicopter gunship, right?

James Bond has a vintage hunting rifle and a stone house and a knife.

It's, know, we've got some real disparities in approach here.

But choosing the ground, choosing the terms to be the kinds of things that James Bond is
really good at, you know, up close and personal violence being primary among them.

You know.

is what sets us up for what, as we were talking about in the pre-show, right?

A really fun back half of the movie, right?

And so I want to hear your analogy here because this did not occur to me until you
mentioned it, but this is 100 % true.

And so I want to hear your analogy here because this did not occur to me until you
mentioned it, but this is 100 % true.

Yeah, so our mountaintop is the Home Alone moment.

get this, there's no way if you're directing or you're writing this that you're not
considering that this is gonna be to the audience a bit like Home Alone, where they get in

and they just, they have this old house and all they've got is the stuff that's lying
around and they've got these people who are nefarious and more competent potentially than

they are coming to get them, but they're just gonna be witty and they're gonna leverage
the fact that they have the higher ground.

Basically and that they had they're on their home turf and they can use that to stay one
step ahead At least for a little while and it's amazing because the first thing that you

get it's so home alone II you get the they pull up and they're like slowly Approaching to
figure out what happens and then you get the machine guns in the front of the car they go

off and it's a Diversion and then you know bonds even in the car and they didn't they get
distracted from that So he's able to get up behind him and stuff.

It's just brilliant

Yeah, see, it's got everything except for the paint can't swing on a rope, right?

know, it's like all the ridiculous booby traps, all of the misdirection, all of the
improvising with the materials at hand.

Yeah, so, and it's beautifully shot and it's dark and there's fire and there's explosions
and there's this frozen lake and there's snow.

it's wonderfully done.

Cool gothic house.

But like you said, it's, it's not running away.

It's choosing the ground.

It's, it's, it's also leaning into the problems.

It's leaning into the sacrifice is leaning into willing to face the hard things.

Like I'm not, I'm, I'm not trying to get away from Silva.

I'm trying to face Silva on my terms.

I'm not trying to get away from my childhood trauma of being an orphan.

I'm going to go back to the house and use that to my advantage.

And I'm going to, and it's the, all the layers of sacrifice.

It's blowing up the childhood home and the car, you know, and just like all of the things,
you know, laying it all on the table.

Right.

And this is so, this goes back to the, Batman quote, right?

You know, I haven't given everything not yet, right?

It's laying it all on the table in service of what Bond actually values, which turns out
to be nebulously country in the greater good.

personified into despite her missteps.

still, you know, and, and, and like, likewise her leaning into it, her taking on personal
physical peril in this environment and trusting him and being at the ground level for the

first time after directing these airstrikes from her pajamas over her career, right?

We get, we get the, two of them coming together to try to, to try to face this challenge.

And we get this cool part where we see up into this point, they've over and over been
thwarted by Silva.

It's like what they're trying isn't working.

And I think there's times in our lives when we can feel like that either in your business
or in your personal life or whatever.

It's like, whatever I'm doing, it's not working.

It just, I keep trying, I'm putting forth effort, but it's not resulting in the type of
outcomes that I think it should be resulting in.

And so they changed the game up entirely like we talked about and what he has to do
though,

is he has to go into the pain.

He has to go into this house.

He has to see Silva, right?

He faces his altar image basically in Silva at this ground zero of his origin story.

And that's a really hard thing for people to do.

When I ask most people, you know, tell me one or two, this is one of the first questions I
ask somebody.

if I'm having a deep conversation, if it's like an initial mentoring conversation or
whatever is tell me one or two transformational moments in your life where everything

changed.

And these are the types, this is one of those moments for Bond when he realizes that he
has to go back and face, he can't just always be this, you know, stone faced, hard, old

school dude.

Otherwise he, a, they might not be able to accomplish the mission, which is what's most
important to him.

But B, who is he going to become if he just keeps going down that path and it's going back
into the pain that allows him to

I think, Brian, open up that softness that you were talking about.

It's a nuance, right?

But he's, he's not defined by his suffering the way Silva is.

He defines himself by his ability to endure the suffering because he's got some greater
purpose in mind.

Right.

And that's it.

Those are, they're very related ideas, but they have very different outcomes.

We talked about at the top of this episode, right?

The, the, the result in your character and the results in your relationships with other
people who result in what Silva tries to accomplish with his life is he can't imagine

anything past revenge.

Like literally he's ready to die when he's ready to get his revenge.

Cause he's just like, okay, that's it.

That's all I had was just being, was just, you know, hurting the people that hurt me.

whereas Bond can't imagine like leaving before the job's done.

You can't imagine, you know, he can't imagine not facing the pain if that's what it's
going to take.

Right.

And so even the little story that Kincaid tells about him, you know, hiding in the cellar
when he found out that his parents died and when he came out.

Two days later, was, you he wasn't a child anymore.

Like he has decided consistently all along not to be defined by that pain.

Like to have that be, it informs him, you know, that's his experiences are part of his
character, but he's making choices about who he's going to be.

Right.

And so again, Silva is, Silva believes that experience is destiny.

Right.

And, Bond is.

cultivating his own character in his own way, but he lashed onto a mentor that he believed
in and still does.

cultivating his own character in his own way, but he lashed onto a mentor that he believed
in and still does.

So it's easy, at least it's easier for me to see how to apply this to my personal life,
Brian.

So for our practical application today, how do we apply this to business?

We're in our series about villains and we're looking at sort of their failure modes.

and we've talked a lot about these, you know, the different, the different villains over
the course of these last couple of episodes and what Silva sort of doesn't see.

But the thing for me that talking about it, that comes back to this movie is really about
the mentor, the role of the mentor, right?

And that all of this is kind of goes back to M's character and how she approaches like
mission above everything.

And she's very explicit about it.

She's, you you get the sense that she's kind of sentimental underneath of all the things,
but she's, you know, she's very British about not showing it.

But, but the reason.

can I just tell you that the time that we get to see that the most in this movie is
definitely when she here, like when she says, the shot and then there's no, like you can

just see the back of her, but the she's in front of this big window and the rain just
starts to pour against the window.

You don't see her crying or anything like that, but it's a, again, brilliant
cinematography to display the like feelings that she has in that moment.

Yeah, yeah.

Somehow you know what Judy's denture is thinking, even when she's completely stone-faced.

Like she does an amazing job with this.

Right.

But if you think about, you know, if you're going to be the leader who will ask your
people to make sacrifices, who's going to have to be, make the hard decisions, who is

potentially going to put people in harm's way or potentially screw up and do things that
don't work.

Right.

If you're going to be that leader and you want people to follow you, you have to be
mission forward.

Right?

If they believe you're doing it because it's for you, if they believe that you're doing it
because you're selfish or scared or looking for your interest in your own power or career,

like they're not going to tolerate it.

They're not going to follow you.

They're not going to be inspired by you.

They're not going to sacrifice themselves for your mission.

The only way that that works, the only way you can ask people to jump through those kinds
of hoops is if they see you self-sacrificing, if they see you explicit about the mission

and who you're benefiting and why.

And if you can do that, you know, if we, if, if, if you can get to that point as a leader,
then they'd be like, sure.

Yeah, I will.

I am, I'm on board.

I will, I will face the drama with you.

I will work extra hard.

I will take on personal pain.

and so it, know, you can't, not everybody will see that, right?

Some of them are going to be silver and we'll assume you're being selfish or they're,
they're so into themselves that they can't do that.

They can't see it.

But the only way to potentially inspire people to be James Bond's to take those risks is
to have the figure that cares for them as much as possible, but also cares for the mission

more.

And that's, think if you've had that person in your life, if you've had that mentor in
your career, if you've had a leader in your career who maybe, no matter how close you were

And that's, think if you've had that person in your life, if you've had that mentor in
your career, if you've had a leader in your career who maybe, no matter how close you were

to them, who you were very clear on the...

principles and motivations behind their decision-making, then it's a lot easier to
comprehend, you know, the sacrifices you have to make.

Maybe I can expand upon that a little bit.

In addition to that, I love everything that you're saying about the mentor.

We talked about it last episode about how to avoid creating Riddler-like villains.

And it really comes down to mentoring and showing compassion on people.

Because we all are going to go through moments that could make us, that could take our
destiny a certain direction.

Now, how do we think about that from an organization perspective?

And we talk a lot about the system that is MI6 because in your business, you might not
have a character played by Javier Bardem, who's just hell bent on tearing the system apart

or something like that.

But what you probably do have is in one way, shape or form a system that isn't necessarily
performing to the goal that the organization wants it to.

You if you notice that you're not getting exactly where you want to go.

I've seen this before.

The system has people have started to confuse the mission in the system where it's like,
well, no, we just have to accomplish this.

We just have to follow through on this process.

We just have to follow through on this process.

We just have to follow through on this process.

And if we just keep doing it, then mission.

It's like, no, you're letting the system override the mission at some point in that
moment, we have to stop and evaluate.

Wait a second.

Are we actually serving our customers by doing this thing or are we just following a
process at this point?

Right.

And we see, yeah, we see in this movie, we see MI6 falling into that, right?

That there's clearly some, everybody's sort of gotten distracted by the...

political infighting and they don't spend as much time as they should talking about
mission, talking about who they're benefiting and how.

We certainly see them falling into that.

that's as much as, as much as talks about mission, think connecting that to ground level
actions.

It's easy to, if you're not down on the ground level yourself ever, it's easy to lose
track of that, right?

It's easy to assume that everybody's kind of, know, assume that things are going better
than they are.

at the interface with the customer, the interface with the product, at the interface with
the factory line or anything else that your organization is managing.

Yeah, for me, I have to reflect on the mission often, reflect on the vision of the
organization.

Is that what we're currently doing?

Does it look like that when we work every day?

Is that how we're collaborating?

Is that how we're delivering value to the customer?

And if it's not, then the system's not good enough.

The system is not meant to exist in a stable state forever.

The system is meant to evolve.

That's the only way that it's going to be able to perpetually, you know, delight the
customer.

create value for the people who are working there, create satisfaction, and of course also
stay ahead of the competition.

It has to evolve.

And that goes back to our earlier conversation about agency, It's like the system itself
is not going to naturally adapt to changing circumstances.

It's individual people in the system need to be empowered to make the changes, need to be
empowered to sense what's going on.

And so we have this balance of different personality types that are needed, right?

And when they're working well together, when you have...

and broadcasting principles and cue developing technology and James Bond executing stuff
on the ground.

And they're all kind of on the same page and, you know, and trusting each other and
listening to each other.

Then things are going well.

And when they are not trusting each other, when they don't quite get where the other
person's coming from, when they aren't collaborating, then you get everybody just sort of

defaults to like, well, I'm going to do the thing that the system says I should do, or I'm
going to do my own agenda.

And that's where we have the kind of the cracks in the system here.

Yeah, man, once again, getting back to modeling of systems and how do we not overturn
again, because we're not trying to be like Silva, but shock the system, because we are

trying to be like Bond in our own lives.

How do we know where to make changes to the system?

Because if you're the one who's noticing that things need to change in the system,

then you're the one to make those changes.

And that's the, think the revelation that Bond has maybe two thirds of the way through
this movie that I think it's honestly after he hears the rat analogy and then he sees it

play out once more.

He's like, I am the rat.

Okay.

Well, what can I do differently?

Because I don't have to adhere to the system.

He thinks I do.

Right, right, right.

He's, yeah, he's just, you get tired of playing the somebody else's game.

So yeah.

So yeah.

So let's talk about some, we've got a lot of good stuff in there.

Let's talk about some key takeaways.

What are some specific actions we can look for and take based on avoiding some of the
syllabus failure modes or, you know, enabling somebody to go off and do the James Bond

thing at the moment when that's the critical action.

Yeah, the first thing that we talked about here and the thing at the highest level is the
mission.

Got to keep the mission above other things.

That's what keeps us from turning into Silva.

Silva very quickly through his circumstances morphs what was an organizational mission
into his own twisted personal mission, which he then twistedly acts out.

Right.

The second thing I think we see here is that the importance of collaboration and trust,
right?

Establishing personal rapport and trust with the people around you and through acting with
integrity, as we like to talk about, right?

But when things go poorly for MI6 here, it's because they're all pointing fingers at each
other and they're not trusting each other to do the job.

And they are, you know, kind of second guessing or still in the early rocky stages of
forming these relationships.

with Q, with Moneypenny, with with Mallory all the way through, right?

And when things do go well, it's when they are trusting each other even to do slightly
unlikely or non-standard things.

So when Mallory comes in and their leg of bread comes for Silva and doing something that
they probably shouldn't be doing, he's like, anyway, good luck, carry on.

He doesn't come down on them with the chapter and verse.

He's like, okay, I'm gonna trust you guys to do the non-standard thing because we're in a
non-standard situation.

Right.

And when I'm trust James Bond to take her out of the, take her out of the environment and
go do something else.

Those are the things where it works well.

And so you pre pre-existing relationships make that a lot easier.

Right.

But starting to get at the core of who somebody is and what their mission is and how do
you relate to them?

Like they do with Mallory over the course of this movie is another thing that kind of
unlocks that ability to, to work together.

Hmm.

And then we also talked about leaning into the pain, especially when things aren't working
the way that they're currently working and it's getting frustrating as much as it is

difficult.

One of the cheat codes is, okay, where's the pain?

Where's the unresolved trauma that we or I need to go back into?

You know, what is my skyfall that I'm avoiding?

Because the only way to go forward is potentially to go backwards first.

Right.

Yeah.

Clean this stuff up and don't be afraid of the hard problems.

Don't be afraid to face the thing that needs to get resolved running away from it or
trying to undo it isn't necessarily, isn't, you know, it's not going to All right.

We're having a lot of fun with the villains in this series.

We have one more set of episodes left and for our next series, we're going to be doing the
Rings of Power and we're going be talking about the

Lord of the Rings villain Sauron in his earlier incarnations as the deceiver before he
becomes the one that we see in the later books and movies.

And we're looking forward to that.

We'll do a couple of episodes on Sauron.

Thanks for joining us once again.

Until next time, just remember, as always, character is destiny.

Until next time, just remember, as always, character is destiny.