WonderTour

Welcome to Lead Wisely by Wondertor.

We are on episode 116 and we are talking about the movie The Batman and we're in a villain
series.

So we're talking about the villain, The Riddler.

So Brian, let's start with a tough question about leadership.

What does The Riddler's arc teach us about Batman's failures as a leader?

We see these two characters kind of foils of each other that come to different ends.

So by looking at the Riddler and his successes and his failures, so by looking at the
Batman and comparing him to the Riddler, what can we learn about leadership?

Nice, I love this one.

So in our last episode, we talked about the Carmine Falcon mob boss character from this
movie.

And he was very calculating.

He was all about planning and setting up a process where he could stay on top and be
wealthy and leverage and control.

And he was a very controlling leader.

The Riddler is a very different kind of villain and a very different kind of leader.

He's not all about himself.

He is actually...

kind of self-sacrificing.

He's all about vengeance.

He's all about this big purpose of getting back at the world that's hurt him and exposing
the bad people, the corruption in the elites.

He leads by example.

He doesn't instruct or direct a team.

He doesn't have much in the way of relationships.

Actually, he has basically no relationships at all, which is one of the things we'll talk
about, right?

But he's willing to go do things himself.

He's very personally invested in the details of what's happening.

And as a villain, even as a human, like he's incredibly lonely.

He's desperate for validation from like-minded people that it's not, know, that he
doesn't, that he's not crazy, that he's not alone, that other people understand his

He's desperate for validation from like-minded people that it's not, know, that he
doesn't, that he's not crazy, that he's not alone, that other people understand his

suffering, right?

He's a very unhappy person.

And so he's inflicting unhappiness in other people.

At this early point in this movie, the Batman that we see here is he's just a vigilante,
right?

He's the, he starts off with the I am vengeance, right?

And he is trying to solve the problems of Gotham City sort of one at a time by punching
them.

And he is trying to solve the problems of Gotham City sort of one at a time by punching
them.

So he's kind of strategic about it and he's working really hard and he's very
self-sacrificing and he's very, you know, he's trying to make things better, but he is...

behaving in sort of similar ways to the Riddler, right?

He's trying to take out bad things one at a time.

And he'd use bad things as what we see mostly sort of ground level thugs, whereas the
Riddler is looking at high level corrupt officials.

But what we find out is that, you know, the sort of the failure mode here for Batman is
that although inside he's not the same, inside he's not, he's lonely, but he's not that

alone.

He's got people in his life.

He's got Alfred.

He's got a good working relationship with Jim Gordon.

He's able to engage with Selina Kyle through the course of the movie.

Like he's got some functional relationships.

On the inside, he's got the potential to be better.

But on the outside, you can't tell the difference, right?

actually, Riddler can't tell the difference.

Riddler thinks they're like best friends.

He's like, you've inspired me.

I thought you were going to get it.

I thought you were going to understand me.

What Batman is doing is sort of perpetuating the cycle of fear and violence, right?

He is going around fixing problems by being really mad at the problems, right?

And by punishing the bad people, right?

And he's, so what he's demonstrating to the world is that there are bad people who are
responsible for your suffering and they should be punished.

And so other people are learning that lesson from him.

So he's an effective leader, as at this early stage, like he is leaving, people are
following him apparently.

Right.

But it's not really, he hasn't really figured out what change he's trying to make in the
world.

And so he's not terribly effective yet.

and the Riddler is, following his example, but is a bit more effective is has got a bigger
change in the world in mind than he's, he's putting together a plan for.

Yeah, they're both kind of aimless though.

Like you said, they are against a lot of things, but they don't, they're still trying to
figure out what they're for.

And the Riddler never figures out what he's for.

He's, he internally is for recognition.

He's, he internally is for recognition.

He's for community of some kind, but he was never taught how to get those things through
the normal channels.

And so he's instead getting them through these corrupted channels that

It just continues to perpetuate this bad view of the world that, and eventually that is
the split between he and the Batman, right?

Is even though we do initially see the Batman as vengeance, let's just think about the
first scene with the Batman in the last scene.

So the first time we see him, he's vengeance and he's here at this very small point in
time doing this like mundane thing, helping this one guy, which again, is that a bad

thing?

No, but it's...

It's what he has to offer at that point.

And then at the end, he's there and he's picking up bricks.

He's like helping to clean up.

He's there with like a small group of people.

The whole city's in disarray.

And yet he's helping one small area, like one brick at a time.

So he's doing a similar thing, but it's the reframing.

That's what matters.

And it's only by seeing the Riddler and finally like realizing that looking at the Riddler
is like looking at a weird, bizarro Batman.

It's like, uh-oh, maybe I don't stand for anything.

Yeah.

So like we talked a little bit about the cinematography in the last in the last episode,
and I think this is this is a good place to talk about that, too.

The dark and the light and the, you know, the parallel elements of the movie.

Yeah.

In that very first scene, you know, Batman, I am vengeance.

Like this guy's going to get mugged on getting off the subway.

I'm going to go help him.

Right.

So he goes up and beats up a bunch of people.

Right.

And at the end of that scene.

the kind of junior thug who doesn't get beat up and could possibly be influenced by
Batman, like, maybe I'm on the wrong path.

Like, he's terrified and he runs away.

And the guy whose life he's just saved is like, God, please don't hurt me.

And he's terrified and runs away.

So like, know, so Batman's like, yay, he saved the guy from getting beat up.

But the only thing that he successfully spread is fear.

Right.

Like everybody's still scared of him.

Right.

Then in the next to last scene, like as the as the

The thing is flooding and the bad guys are defeated and, you know, they're kind of right
before the daylight dawns.

We've got this incredible overhead shot of Batman in the water holding this flare, which
is the only source of light.

And he's walking across the water and there's this wedge of people following him.

Like that they're, following him to safety, following the freedom, because he's pulled
them out from under the rubble and whatever.

And that's literally the first time in the movie that we see people following him.

Like he's not a leader until basically that moment.

And so I think this, this entire movie is the arc of him going from being a vigilante to
being a leader, right?

Being a, you know, being a superhero, but in, but being somebody that other people kind of
are, are inspired to follow.

Being a, you know, being a superhero, but in, but being somebody that other people kind of
are, are inspired to follow.

Being a, you know, being a superhero, but in, but being somebody that other people kind of
are, are inspired to follow.

Yes.

He learns the lesson, another lesson that we always talk about here on Wander Tour, that
true power is in sacrifice.

And Batman, that is his superpower.

I know people say Batman's superpower is all his tools, whatever, but to me, his
superpower is that he recognizes that true power is in sacrifice.

And so he consistently, consistently sacrifices himself for others.

And that is what usually flips the script on the villain.

All right.

All right.

I want to talk about that more, but first let's do the intro.

Hi, I'm Brian Notwell.

And I'm Drew Perot.

And we are on a journey to lead wisely, to become better leaders by touring fantastic
worlds and inspiring lore by going on a wonder tour.

We connect leadership concepts to story contexts because it sticks to our brains better.

You can find out more at wondertorpodcast.com or on YouTube by looking up Lead Wisely, all
one word.

So right before right before the intro, you mentioned about how Batman superpowers really
sacrifice.

And I kind of love that because when we think about him sort of in context of his life,
like he's had some terrible things happen to him, but he's also fabulously wealthy.

So he could really pretty much do anything he wanted.

Right.

If he wanted to be lying on the beach somewhere, he could like he has that choice of noble
to him.

Right.

So it's not just the individual, like physical sacrifice of training and going out in the
dark and fighting bad guys and all that.

but it's also the choices of how he chooses to spend his time, which goes back to what we
talked about in the last episode of having the something bigger than yourself to care

about.

And so already we see at the beginning of this movie, he's got that, right?

He's got the willingness to self-sacrifice and he's got the, care about something bigger
than myself.

I need to fix this city.

I need to make things better.

And the Riddler sort of has that and sort of doesn't, right?

He wants revenge.

Right?

He wants revenge for the bad things.

He's consumed by vengeance.

And I feel like the Bruce Wayne Batman character is, he's using this vengeance tagline as
like, that's what I'm supposed to be doing.

But he hasn't really settled into it.

Right?

He's not super happy with it.

And he's clear that it's just sort of, you know, stemming a rising tide and he's just not
getting it done.

Yeah, he you're right that it's almost like he hasn't yet understood Who Batman is like
what creates Batman's character?

What makes Batman?

the symbol that because it's the symbol that that constitutes fear right not the symbol
that constitutes hope but we know from Batman lore that That's the bat symbol is about

hope not fear So I love that and how does he bring hope to people he?

brings hope by continuously making the difficult decisions, which is why, shout out to
going back to our top 100, or our, going back to our top 10 magnanimous leaders.

But either way, this is something that the Riddler never figures out at any point.

To him, he is wronged.

He goes through trauma at a younger age.

We hear about it with the situation where he looks up to Thomas Wayne and he thinks he's
going to help solve the problem and then finds out that Thomas Wayne theoretically had his

dad murdered or whatever happened there.

And it becomes his villain origin story.

think that the recognition when you're wronged and that like we talked about in the last
episode, the want.

of the ego to be self-righteous and to be vindicated in that, to have everything made
right for you.

of the ego to be self-righteous and to be vindicated in that, to have everything made
right for you.

Batman has everything, know, has a lot of unfair things happen to him and he never lets it
become a chip on his shoulder really.

Instead, he lets it become the impetus for him to sacrifice for others.

so I love that

We see him learn that lesson in this movie in a way that we don't in almost any of the
other Batman movies.

But the cool part, as we talked about, is how that contrasts with the Riddler, who's
dealing with a lot of the same origin story that Batman's dealing with, as an orphan, as

the struggling to find his place, needs to have a mentor, blah, blah.

But falls flat.

So Brian, let's talk about the mountaintop and why the Riddler does not succeed where
Batman does.

Right.

So our mountaintop scene working our way up to this is for the most of this movie, the
Riddler is sort of a shadowy figure.

And the only thing we see from him is cryptic messages, handwritten greeting cards with
scribbles on them, and kind of grainy off angle videos of him in a mask breathing really

heavily and saying kind of crazy things and threatening the elite with the corrupt elite
with vengeance and all that.

we don't really interact with him until quite deep into the movie.

After and then after he is killed Falcone or had Falcone killed, they find him upstairs,
you know, they chase him upstairs to his apartment and then he's gone.

He's escaped, but he hasn't gone very far.

He's just sitting at a cafe drinking a cup of coffee and he's apparently he's just ordered
a cup of pumpkin pie.

so they put him in prison.

They take him to Arkham Asylum because he's clearly insane.

And he asked to see Batman.

so Batman shows up in Batman garb, not, you know, not not master whatever.

and to interrogate him and to try to figure out what is it he's trying to accomplish.

And he kind of has this suspicion that the plan isn't over yet, that like Falcone wasn't
the last domino to fall.

And so we have some fun bait and switch in that meeting where Batman thinks that maybe
he's being unmasked or not.

But what happens is we find out the Riddler's like,

We should be friends.

Like we're, we're the same.

We're both vigilantes beating up on the people that are, you know, that have hurt us and
that are screwing up the city.

And so like, of course, you know, you naturally, you saw my stuff and I've, know, I've
been sending you all these love letters and like, you know, Bruce has been most trustful

this whole time.

Like, why is he, why is he targeting me?

Why is he involved in this?

Like he's kind of a fan boy.

Like he's just like, you're great.

Like I'm really smart and you're really strong and we're both fighting the same fights and
we're just going to be a team.

And we did a great job.

We killed that mob boss and now we can get the rest of them.

This is totally not the conversation that Batman thinks he wants to, he's about to have.

And he misunderstands it in this moment as like, well, this guy's just crazy.

This guy's like, he's just, he's clearly he's, he's, so hurt.

He's so alone.

He's so confused.

He's so hateful that he's just like, he's taken me for something that I'm not.

And like, he's just crazy.

And he's that means very upset about this whole interaction and about, you know, and the
fact that he's been portrayed in this light by this insane serial killer.

and then it's revealed that there's a, you know, that there's more pieces to the plot and
the Riddler's really disappointed that he didn't understand the whole, you he didn't

detect all the clues and then Riddler's really upset.

You know, he's, he, he breaks down into like, this is not how this meeting was supposed to
go.

I've been in those meetings.

This is not how this was supposed to go.

I've been in those meetings.

Like that's, know, you don't want to have a performance view that goes that way.

But, but that completely rejects this whole angle.

in this meeting.

And it's not until later in the movie where we get the second half of the mountaintop, you
know, right at the very end on the platform when Batman has defeated all the vigilantes

And it's not until later in the movie where we get the second half of the mountaintop, you
know, right at the very end on the platform when Batman has defeated all the vigilantes

and then Selena Kyle saved him, then he saved her back and beaten up on the vigilante and
they unmasked this vigilante and they ask him who he is.

And he gives Batman's catchphrase back.

He's like, I'm vengeance.

And it's not until that moment, like two hours and 48 minutes into this movie.

right?

That Bruce actually figures out what's going on, right?

That he actually figures out that he is a leader and he has by extension inspired the
Riddler who's inspired these murderous psychopaths to be just like him.

And he realizes like in that moment, like in my head, I'm different than the Riddler
because I have friends and I love people and I have the ability to try to do better in the

world.

But outside, nobody can tell the difference.

But outside, nobody can tell the difference.

Hmm, that's really good.

And as leaders, the image that we're putting up is not always the image that we have in
our head.

And there's times when that's easier and harder to see.

I was talking to a guy recently who has a young child and he was explaining that situation
himself.

He's like, well, in my head, seems like it goes like this, but then I can tell like,

with my young child, kind of like pared it back and I'm like, was I really like that?

Like, because I, to me, everything seems fine.

And yet to other people, you know, I might seem a little bit overly passionate.

I might seem angrier than I am, whatever.

And in this situation, it all comes back to, which we talk about often, like what is your
mission?

Because Batman doesn't really have a mission.

And when your mission is strictly to be against something, you're like, well, this is
tyranny.

It's like, okay.

That's not a bad thing to be against it, but then you also have to find something that
you're going to stand for.

And the way you express what that is, is really important.

People are going to follow you if you're not articulating your goals, if you're hiding in
the shadows and just showing up and beating up people, like they're going to sort of

assume that that's what you're around for.

Like, you know, so if you're a leader and you know, if somebody observes you in a meeting
with somebody else and you're just flaming them, right?

It might be because you're super passionate about your product quality or your customer
experience or the thing, the trouble that could have happened if somebody screwed up.

It could be that you were really trying to protect the company.

could be you're trying to pick that person for making a terrible mistake, but somebody
casually observing you.

If you didn't say that out loud, if you, if they just observed you flaming somebody for
doing something you disagreed with, then the lesson they're going to take is like, that's

the, that's the leader's way to behave in this organization.

Like that's the thing that I should model myself after.

And so Bruce doesn't learn that lesson for a bunch of this movie, even though in his head
he's in, in small private moments, he's

forming relationships and he's trying to make his immediate environment better.

His public persona as a leader is just against things.

It's just fixing problems by very severe methods.

And that doesn't inspire anybody to do anything other than give them permission to do the
same thing with problems they perceive.

Hmm, I'm kind of second guessing here now.

Is is the problem exclusively that he is against things and not for something?

I mean, obviously that's a problem here, or at least a solution would be to be for
something.

But I think you can also be really for a mission.

But if you don't, if you're not for values and for a purpose, even that can be an issue
because that's an easier work example.

Yeah, there are some people that you work with that are just against everything,
especially change, right?

They're going to be like out of pocket.

Yeah, I don't think we should do that because that's new and that's a risk.

Of course, I don't want to poo poo those people right now.

They got enough to deal with.

But what about the people and we may or may not have been these people in our lives who
are just so mission oriented that to everybody else who's watching, it's like, well, I

guess it's just the mission at all costs and they throw aside values.

And to you, if you're that person, you might think like, well, the end justifies the
means.

Like the mission that we're trying to accomplish is a good one.

It's a worthwhile mission to accomplish.

But the problem is you're giving everybody else permission to live under the philosophy
the end justifies the means.

And I think that feeds back into our last episode, right?

The Falcone, you know, the trap of the ends justifying the means, the trap of doing things
at all costs to get what you want is that you end up, you know, sort of, you end up locked

into that cycle of behavior.

yeah, I think that's a good way to think about it is that you kind of have to have both,
right?

You have to have a purpose that is bigger than I'm fixing this problem.

You have to have limits on your behavior so that, you know, the way that you interact with
people around you, even when the case of a problem isn't, you know, has some guardrails on

it, like isn't inherently toxic.

And you have to be saying these things out loud, right?

If you just let people infer why you're doing things, because all they do is observe your
actions and observe when you're really upset or observe when you're doing something really

dramatic.

Like they might be excited that you're fighting the fires, but they might not understand
like what you're, know, what, what your bigger goal is, unless you say it out loud.

And so that's a thing that...

The Riddler never figures out, right?

He never, he never connects with anybody.

He, he expresses his being against things and he looks for people that are equally angry.

but he keeps his mask on the whole time.

Like he doesn't build any friendships.

He's got like this online community, people that helped him figure out how to plug a
detonator into C4 and they all want to put on masks and come help them shoot people.

you know, those aren't really, those aren't really long, sustainable relationships.

Those are just, you know, very reactive, very negative.

Yeah, exactly.

It's just what can you

cathartic, but it's not, you know, it's not building anything.

Right.

And so, yeah, we don't see that man build anything, you know, except for his own toys
until the very end of this movie.

And in, by a complete coincidence, we don't see anybody following him or trusting him
until the very end of this movie.

Right.

He does individual interactions pretty well, which the Riddler never does, but he doesn't
do the big public gestures.

He, you know, he's

He's self-sacrificing, but he's never seen to self-sacrifice until the end.

that's the, know, so what this movie portrays, of course, you know, big glossy superhero
movie, right?

But that sense that he has to internalize, not just fighting against things, but also
looking for opportunities to help and looking for opportunities to be an example of

somebody who is self-sacrificing and helping, which very few other characters in the movie
do.

Yeah, so I mean, you're kind of talking about our practical application here because it's
tough, especially out the gate to know what the vision is and the mission is that you want

to lead with.

That takes some iteration.

It takes some trial and error even to figure out what that is and the way to do that
responsibly.

is to surround ourselves with good people to find out who is my Gordon, who is my Alfred.

Because those people are going to hold you accountable.

And we see that like Alfred tells him the truth of what happens when he needs to, when
he's lying on the hospital bed after he gets blown up.

He tries to make sure that the actions that Bruce is going to take are aligned with his
character and his values.

even though Bruce is still learning and still failing and growing.

It's like that's a safe space, even though, you know, there may be pain that's created out
of it, but it's a safe space to grow when we surround ourselves with good mentors, when we

surround ourselves with people who are experts in a thing that we're not experts in.

Right.

Yeah.

And I think you, we talked about having the, you know, the big picture, like I want to
change the world in this way.

I want to make this improvement.

want to keep Gotham from being so miserable.

Right.

And the small picture that, you know, the, the ethics, the character, the, the, you
behave, like you can start with either one.

You can start with, know, so in this case, Bruce starts with the big picture and then he
has to sort of derive the smaller things to, know, how to, how to, you know, the tactics

You can start with, know, so in this case, Bruce starts with the big picture and then he
has to sort of derive the smaller things to, know, how to, how to, you know, the tactics

to get that strategy done.

I think you can start the other way too.

I think you can start like, have the intention to have these small positive interactions
with people and then I'll use those interactions to help me figure out like, what's a

bigger mission I could run out.

I think you could do it in that direction too.

But I like that you pulled in the mentoring element, right?

Is that, you know, the Riddler character doesn't have any of that.

He doesn't have anybody in his life that he can trust that just like shows him that you
can care for other people and have that work where we've got a couple of those examples.

And Briddler actually in contrast, right.

He even talks about like, I was there when Bruce Wayne announced his candidacy and I was a
kid and I was really excited.

He was going to fix the, you know, he's going to fix the orphanages and take care of
everybody.

And then it turned out he had, you know, he had my father murdered or he, you know, he
turned out he was corrupt and he sort of extrapolates that into all authority figures are

corrupt.

No authority figure is trustworthy.

Only the only thing you could do is to try to get back at them.

Like he, he extrapolates that out and.

Bruce doesn't take it to that extent because he's got counter examples.

And so from a practical application standpoint, is you don't have to be Batman.

You could just be the counter example, right?

You could just be Alfred.

You could be Jim Gordon.

You could be the person who's just like visible in the world, like having a principal,
having, you know, having small scale ethics and large scale goals.

And as you pass by encouraging someone to not be in a crisis by themselves.

Yeah, that's really good.

It's both sides.

It's when you're in the crisis, you know, look to other people that no matter how alone
you feel, like the world is better than you think.

People are better than you think.

If you like look for a place you can go look for somebody to talk to, people can sense
that and good people will help you.

But then to be a great leader, you got to do the opposite as well.

You got to extend yourself for the good of others, even when it's at a cost to you, even
when it's uncomfortable.

even when it means not getting to do the thing that you wanted to do.

Those are the moments where you like we talk about Brian.

Oftentimes our goal is not to be Luke Skywalker.

It's not to be Batman.

It's to be Alfred.

It's to be Obi-Wan.

And you only become skilled as a mentor and you only, I mean, you can scale it so much
more.

You can scale the impact that you have on others so much more.

when you can help to create other Batmans, when you can help other people to have
Batman-like characters.

100%.

Right.

that's the difference between the Carmine Falcone goal of like, I need to make things good
for me at the expense of everybody else.

And the Riggler of, I need to make things bad for other people because it's been bad for
me.

Right.

The Batman goal that he has to get to is, I need to make good things good for me and good
for other people at the same time.

And so that sort of implies that we're going to have to do it together.

Right.

And it takes them a while to get there, but people that are, that are on a team who have a
leader who is willing to be wrong and sort of trusting anyway, it's willing to be

vulnerable.

It's willing to sacrifice themselves.

People that are in that environment that have a team and a mission and are being
demonstrated how, you know, what character looks like those people are not going to turn

into the Riddler.

Yeah, and I might even turn that what you said a little bit.

think the lesson that Batman learns is that what is good for him is to give what he has to
other people so that they can have it better.

I don't think he necessarily learns that it's, you know, he what it's I don't think he
necessarily learns that.

I don't think he necessarily learns that it's, you know, he what it's I don't think he
necessarily learns that.

It's good for him and it's good for them.

It's good for everybody.

It's like a lot of what he has to go through is painful and it's not the choice that most
humans would ever make, but that's what is fulfilling.

It's seeing others have it better because he makes a sacrifice.

Right.

And because he's attached to this idea of, the city's important to me, the legacy is
important to me.

Right.

Like he has the explicit moment at the end where he could just get on his motorcycle and
ride away with Selena Kyle and, and just go, you know, be Bruce Wayne and, you know, spend

the trust fund.

Right.

Like there's nothing to stop him from doing that.

Literally nothing to stop him.

Right.

Except that he is already married to this concept of this purpose.

Right.

And he just, he's like, okay, well, this is, this is what I want to do.

And so, you know,

Okay, this needs to be done and nobody else is going to do it.

So I'm going to go do this, but he's got a better sense of doing it with people and not
doing it and doing it for people and not doing it just against the bad people.

Yeah, he gives until there's nothing left for others.

And that's why he's one of our most magnanimous heroes.

He gives us the Dark Knight Rises, not everything, not yet moment, which we love so much.

That is truly one of the moments that comes up only less often than Dr.

That is truly one of the moments that comes up only less often than Dr.

Strange, but it's probably like the second most common moment that we bring up is not
everything, not yet, because that is truly iconic.

And each one of us, when you...

hear that you're like, if only I could be that person that when faced with my toughest
trial and I have the chance to take the easy road, I stand in and take the hit instead for

the rest for the community saying, no, I haven't given enough yet.

And that's because it is because it's about the, you know, it is ability to be sympathetic
to like, I'm thinking about how this is going to affect other people.

And that's because it is because it's about the, you know, it is ability to be sympathetic
to like, I'm thinking about how this is going to affect other people.

If I do it, or if I don't do it, right.

I'm thinking about what the consequences and I'm more attached to these people, not having
this bad outcome.

I'm more attached to protecting them.

more attached to, you know, exerting my, my power in that way than I am in protecting
myself.

And that's.

that sacrifice and vulnerability comes up in every one of these stories that we see, not
just because it makes for good cinema, but because it's what we think of leader looks

like, right?

That's what we think is the kind of people we want to follow, right?

And so you don't have to, you don't have to like risk your life.

You know, don't, you don't have to cut the power cable and get shocked and fall into, you
know, a hundred feet into the water personally, like in business life, that doesn't happen

very often.

Like that's not the kind of thing you're called upon to do, but being willing to
occasionally prioritize the high level mission over, your personal in the moment gain or

your personal in the moment comfort is actually kind of required.

It is required, yeah.

That is what it takes to become a magnanimous leader and that's what we continuously learn
from Batman.

I'm very excited for the Batman 2, which we are not that far away from.

it's coming.

All right, well that was fun.

I think we have, we learned more from the villains than we thought we might the last
couple episodes, but this one was cool.

We had two different, very different kinds of villains and we had a kind of a satisfying
character arc for the Batman in his early evolution.

We can all aspire to have such a satisfying improvement in our magnanimity.

Next time, we're gonna continue a fourth batch of episodes in our villain series is going
to be, we of course have to do a Bond villain.

So we're going to go to the movie Skyfall and we'll examine a villain that again, looks
very much like a fun house mirror image of the hero.

And we'll see what we can extract from that one.

So I'm looking forward to revisiting that.

Awesome.

Looking forward to it, Brian.

All right, well thanks everyone for joining us as always.

We hope you enjoyed it and just remember between now and then, as always, character is
destiny.