WonderTour

Welcome to Lead Wisely by Wunder Tour.

Today we are talking about the movie Ready
Player One, and we're gonna kick ourselves

off here with a tough question about
leadership.

Why is it so appealing for us to escape to
a virtual world?

Drew, what do you think?

That's a really good one.

And it starts out right at the beginning
of the movie in Ready Player One, we get

this voiceover that at some point in this
dystopian history, people stopped trying

to solve the world's problems and started
trying to outrun them.

And doesn't it feel a little bit like that
is the case in our world today?

And it probably always has been so.

It's not crazy to think that was still the
case before we had all this advanced

technology.

But I do think that we still should

consider this question, you know, why
escape instead of address your problems

face on instead of going and solving real
problems for real people.

And we're not so simple as to think that,
you know, we should just throw away any

concepts of a digital or virtual world and
go back to the stone ages.

But really the idea of it being appealing
to escape, I mean, why?

Because it's easier a lot of times.

I think that's the starting point, like,

That's why we do it, because I can either
go face this terrible problem that I've

created for myself.

In this situation, we see people in Ready
Player One who have a mountain of debt

that they've created or something like
that.

And that mountain of debt kind of exists
also inside the Oasis, but to some extent

they're able to, or at least they think
that they're going to be able to, get

around that.

We see Iroq.

He has this character who...

is just this master of the oasis of the
game and he plays by no rules except the

ones that are like explicitly enforced by
this virtual world and he does it because

he's good at it and by having no morals or
ethics or anything like that in this

virtual space he can become a god
basically and he can do almost anything it

seems like he can't die but i think really
for humans it's so appealing for us

because we're able to

hide things in a virtual world.

We're able to pretend things don't exist.

And I know that that's challenging, and I
know that it feels like a stab to me

sometimes, because there's times that I
wanna hide things, and there's times that

I don't wanna be fully transparent or be
fully vulnerable about what I've been

through.

But even just looking at Wade Watts in
this movie, I think we can all relate to

him.

Sometimes we wanna put on a different face
and a different name.

and just not have to live through the pain
that we've been through in the past and

not have to, you know, live in the stacks
in Columbus, Ohio or whatever instead

of...

and he can be this other character
Parzival instead.

Yeah, no, I think that's a great place to
start this conversation is the appeal of

that glossier, beautiful, louder, noisier,
faster other world, right?

That is so much cooler than the reality
that you're stuck with or that we feel

like we're stuck with sometimes.

So yeah, I think that's going to be,
that's a really great place to kick this

off.

We're gonna do the intro real quick.

Is that a good place to break this up?

So before that, we'll introduce ourselves
briefly.

I'm Brian Notwell.

And we are on a journey to become better
leaders by touring inspiring worlds and

fad, bleh.

Let's try this again.

This is the part where we can cut, so this
is good.

exactly.

I'm Brian Nutwell, and we are on a journey
to become better leaders by touring

fantastic worlds and inspiring lore by
going on a wonder tour.

We connect leadership concepts to story
context because it sticks to our brains

better.

You can find out more at
wondertourpodcast.com.

Yeah, so go back to what you just said
here, Drew.

So of course, both of us have spent
significant amounts of time in our lives

watching escapist movies and playing
immersive video games.

And as the technology gets better and
better, and I'm sure at some point I'll

get to the putting on a virtual headset
and running on an omnidirectional

treadmill, right?

I can see this happening.

But this is an option we have, right?

The technology is getting to the point
where you can

technologically immerse yourself in it.

You can have images and sounds and even
some tactile interface that kind of feels

like you're having a real experience.

And that makes it easier and easier for
you to just like completely go in and not

only enjoy the environment that you're in,
but kind of buy into the environment

you're in, buy into the rules of it.

Right.

And so we see this, we see this rabbit
hole.

We see this first trap of technology of
the trap of escapism in

MMOs right or in or games like a Diablo or
Clash of Clans or World of Warcraft or any

of the more modern variants where You can
play it so that it is important to you in

your personal life with your personal time
to get better and better at The game right

you can and so you get all these crazy
things where not only can you spend hours

and hours logged in sort of Grinding your
way and leveling up because there's this

incredibly appealing sense of progress.

There's always one more goal There's
always one more cool little widget to get

there's always one more battle to win

But we see this gets to the ridiculous
extreme of then, oh, well, you know, I

don't want to do that, so I'm going to pay
somebody to do that.

So now we have people that are, you know,
bot farmers and grinders who will, loot

grinders who you can, like you can buy a
character from, or you can pay them to

take and log in your character and do all
the onerous tasks that it takes to get

better at a video game, right?

So you start to develop this.

I've so bought into the rules of the video
game that not only will I spend my

precious personal time doing unpleasant
things in the video game to get slightly

better at it,

But I will spend my personal real-world
money and resources to pay somebody else

to do unpleasant things to video games So
I guess it's slightly better at it.

This is it's a really interesting trap of
escapism.

So how does what's been your experience
with us?

Oh yeah, I've definitely been through that
trap of escapism from being a kid and

playing RuneScape and World of Warcraft,
you know, those massively multiplayer

RPGs, to more recently, the last time that
I played a game that was this immersive,

was probably playing Diablo 2 when it was
re-released.

And at some point you reach the point
where you remember why you told yourself

before, at least if you're me, I'm never
playing one of these again.

Because like you said, the loot grind, you
just eventually become one of the bots,

basically.

You're just a human who's operating just
like these machines are, just going to

grind loot.

Like you said, perfect, you know, right in
the heart.

Like you spend money to buy gear because
you're like, oh, like this will make my

character better.

And it's like, and what is the purpose of
making your character better?

And didn't you just like...

you just shortcutted all of the effort
that you were trying to put in anyway,

which was maybe the only good thing out of
all of this was like that you were being

determined and that you were putting forth
effort into something.

And like, these are good skills.

So again, we're not saying that there's
not skills to be learned.

And like now, I'm sure I'll kick myself
later for something about this, but like,

I really like playing strategy games and
card games and stuff like that, because

usually they're interactive with other
people and you're able to like pick up

things that I then turn around and like, I
apply them to business.

I'm like, Oh yeah.

If I squint, like,

The way that I look at this building this
deck can actually be applied to the way

that we look at constructing this
operating model or something like that.

But yeah, I've had that experience, Brian.

So let's bring it back to Ready Player
Run, right?

So Ready Player One presents us with this,
you know, glossy Hollywood example of

this, but it's great.

You know, the stated intention of the
Oasis, our fabled founder character,

Halliday, creates the Oasis to allow
anybody to do anything that they want.

to be anybody they want to be.

They can be a different sex.

They can be a flying insect.

They can be a giant mech.

They can have adventures they want to
have.

They can climb Mount Everest with Batman.

They can ski down the pyramids.

Like there's all these crazy things that
you can do.

And that's, again, that's very much the
appeal of a lot of the games and

technology toys that we play with.

And what we see happening in this movie is
the same, is an exaggerated version of

what we see happening in life, is that
what people choose to do with that is

like,

I could do anything and so what I'm going
to do is join this giant company and turn

into a gold farming grunt with a number on
my chest and just do the same thing over

and over again, like importing all the
rules and structure and limitation of the

real world into the game.

Whether because we choose to do that of
our own volition because we just like

patterns and safety or whether because
that's anything that gets monetized, some

big company is going to come in and try to
impose some order that allows it to make

more money.

But it's really interesting, like what we
see in this game is that that's many

people falling into this trap.

Or what we see in this movie is many
people falling into the trap of, I'm going

to the Oasis where I could be anything and
I'm choosing to be literally

interchangeable, identical human to other
humans.

And isn't that what a long prolonged death
really is for humans, right?

It's this just standardization of
everything, no uniqueness and everybody

becomes this slave to the system.

And it's like, so we surpassed doing that
in real life to some extent in order to

create that in a game.

And that's exactly how I felt like a year
or two ago or whenever I was playing

Diablo two.

And I was like,

Wait a second, if my personal purpose in
life is to help people to achieve freedom,

and yet I'm here playing this game for
multiple hours a day on average, like

using my free time this way versus using
my free time to learn and grow and help

other people to do the same, like, what am
I really doing with my life?

Right.

Well, and part of the appeal, like the
reason that it works, but also the reason

that it gets very, you know, can get very
monotonous or you can get kind of dragged

into the grind of it is that it's
everything.

Like we said, everything is cranked up to
11.

You know, in when we first started playing
video games, you know, we're of the

generation that early video games were
pretty crude, right?

They were blocky.

They were pixelated.

They were slow.

They were, you know, but even then, even,
you know.

Even when we first had video games, you
had movies like Tron where people were

fantasizing about being fully immersed in
the beautiful glossy digital video game.

Now we're to the point where the games are
much closer to photorealistic.

And what the image that we're seeing in
the Oasis is that the virtual world, this

optional video game world is portrayed as
much glossier and sexier and...

you know, more neon and more beautiful and
bigger explosions and everything is

ridiculous.

Like everything is cranked up to 11.

And so on the one hand it makes reality
seem kind of drab and flat.

But on the other hand when everything
escalates and escalates and escalates,

eventually it's just not that impressive,
right?

You just can't get excited about anything
new anymore if everything is possible and

everything is extraordinary.

It's the law of diminishing returns.

The more you do something, the less it
satisfies.

So if you, like you said, if you've
climbed a cliff a million times, then the

only thing that can make it better is to
climb the cliff with Batman.

So you have to, and then once you've
climbed it with Batman, what's next?

Right?

Yeah, so that's it, you know.

And I feel like some of that is because
these challenges are empty in and of

themselves, right?

Just climbing ever steeper cliffs,
especially in a virtual world where you're

just doing it by clicking buttons, right?

Like it doesn't...

At some point you've mastered the clicking
of the buttons part and you're not really

learning anything, you're not really
accomplishing anything new, but you're

also clearly not making any impact in the
real world, right?

It is a way to spend time, but it is not a
way to get anything back for that time

other than...

I didn't have a boring moment or I didn't
have to deal with whatever, you know,

disappointments, stresses, complications I
have in my own personal life.

I, at least I know the rules of this
environment where I can go do this and I

can be good at this and it's intrinsically
rewarding to just go be good at something,

even if it's, you know, grinding my way.

Yeah, and I've seen positive examples
where people have been able to do that,

right?

And there are like really hard video games
where somebody might play them and I can

give some examples where they play them
and then they actually do again.

But that has a finite end and a purpose to
it.

They beat the game.

They do it in a certain way.

They come back out and they say maybe I
can get past this thing in real life.

Maybe this maybe life is not as bad as I
thought it was because I wasn't very good

at this game when I started and I got
better and I got better and I became

really good at it.

and I felt accomplished and I can do that
in life as well.

So again, like always on Wondertour, we're
not trying to take one aspect of a thing

and make it the whole thing.

We're trying to turn things around in our
hands and get them from multiple

perspectives.

But one thing sticks out to me here,
Brian, that we haven't hit on directly

yet.

In your eyes, what is the purpose of
technology?

That is a great question, right?

That's one of these central questions is.

It's the question itself is almost a trap,
right?

What is the purpose of technology?

The technology itself doesn't have a
purpose.

It should be, what are you using, what
purpose are you using technology for in

your life?

Like you get to pick, but we often adopt
the, not only the mechanics, but the

ethics of the technology.

Like, oh, succeeding in the game is its
own end, or it is, you know, or I'm just

using it to, like we said, just to waste
time, to get away from.

you know, as a stress relief.

If you're using it for stress relief,
that's a purpose.

That's a completely reasonable thing.

If you're using it to get better at
something, that could be a thing.

There's, you know, the technology for
learning platforms, right, online learning

is an incredibly powerful way of using
technology.

That's not escapism, that's a whole
different thing.

But that is not because I, you know, feel
like I should take classes in my life, but

like I have a thing that I'd like to get
better at.

I think I'd like to get more knowledgeable
about, right?

And so.

some online modules, Brian.

Hahaha.

Yes, yeah, that's its own rabbit hole for
sure.

But it's one of those questions where the
question is the point, right?

Are you asking yourself, what is the
purpose of me using this technology?

Especially in this escapism world, right?

It is completely valid to use technology
to get yourself a little bit of stress or

at least unwind at the end of the day.

It's completely valid to use technology to
see really beautiful, well-crafted stories

and try to derive.

personal lessons about how to behave or
about ethics or about leadership from the

stories that we love.

That's what we do on this podcast.

Those things are perfectly valid.

But asking that question, one of the
things that this movie suggests to us is

one of the potential purposes of
technology is connection.

When people are having struggles, when
they're feeling isolated, maybe the people

that are immediately around you aren't the
people that you need to help you out with

a problem or aren't the people that are
sympathetic to your dreams.

One of the great things about our
connection technology is that it can

connect us with other people that share
our goals, that share our aspirations,

that are, you know, that are excited about
the same things we're excited about.

And so one of the things this movie keeps
trying to tell us is like, yeah, human

connection is one of the potential
outcomes of technology, but it's also the

one that we tend to sanitize away the
fastest.

We've had a lot of, a lot of news articles
and conversations about the perils of

social media in the last 20 years about
how people

Represent a very shallow slice of
themselves like yay great.

I get to craft my avatar But what comes
along with crafting my avatar is I only

show the stuff that I want other people to
see and I shy Away from any risky

interactions, right?

And so like our I one of my favorite
things in this in this movie was

The main character at one point is using
emotion-suppressing software so that

they're having a real interaction with
another person mediated by this technology

and they've got a thing that makes their
face not show any of what they're actually

thinking so they couldn't accidentally
reveal how they feel about a subject.

That's 100% something that people would
develop and use.

That's a real thing.

Oh yeah, I don't want to actually have a
human conversation here.

I just want to sanitize it to the parts of
myself that I choose to display.

Well, as we wind our way to the mountain
top here, Brian, first off, thank you

because you gave right there the best
example that I have, or the best

definition of the purpose of tech, and you
just reframed it and said, you shouldn't

ask that question, what's the purpose of
tech?

You should ask, what is your purpose?

Then, so let's start with that.

That was brilliant.

And I'm definitely gonna remember that one
forever.

But number two, when you're talking about
the emotion suppressing technology, isn't

human...

development, an example of emotion
suppressing technology, basically, right?

If you look at children, they struggle to
suppress their emotions.

Their emotions just come out.

And to an extent, we want to learn to
avoid that.

But if you just continue, continue and
continue to become more flat, more

reserved, more like avoiding the highs and
the lows, you don't wear your heart on

your sleeve.

You don't want to ever give away what's in
your hand.

Then that is kind of.

that can become a purpose to itself, is to
be reserved, to be hidden so that you can

have that advantage against other people.

And to some extent, yeah, maybe we do need
to keep our emotions held back.

Maybe in the middle of a board meeting,
you don't want to lash out at somebody,

even though internally you're saying like,
you're an idiot.

Like, why would you even suggest such an
idea?

There are certainly situations where
suppressing your emotions is a valuable

skill, right?

For sure.

Right.

That's a good way to look at it, right?

It's almost kind of a mirror image of
escapism, right?

Like, escapism is I want to use technology
to not interact with the external world,

right?

And what we're talking about here is I
want to use technology to not let my

internal world get out and not let other
people see who I really am, what I really

think, how I really feel.

And

It goes back to that question of purpose,
right?

If you are not ever gonna have a genuine
connection with somebody, unless at some

point you tell them how you actually feel.

Who you actually are, what you actually
think, what things you're actually excited

about, right?

At some point, I'm gonna say something
that Drew's like, that's ridiculous, I

don't agree with you, and he's gonna tell
me what he actually thinks.

That's my opportunity to learn something,
right?

If Drew only ever says, oh yeah, Brian,
everything you ever said was exactly what

I think, then.

There's very little chance that I'll
understand what you're thinking.

There's very little chance that I'll learn
something new from this conversation.

And it's easy to fall into that trap when
you're in this world of, you know,

obfuscation where you have the this, like
you said, this thin digital virtual layer

over top of everything, but this thin
layer encompasses like almost everything.

It can cover just about anything.

It's not like a blanket laying over a bed
with a dog in it where it's like, I can

tell where the dog is in the bed, right?

It's sorry.

I have a lot of dog related analogies.

See, I'm like right there with you.

That's great.

It's different than that though, right?

It's like that you put the blanket over
the bed and you can't see the dog at all.

You can completely hide anything that's
underneath of this blanket in this world.

And is that really good for human
development?

Is that really going to help us to be the
leaders that we want to be, to become the

best type of people, to have this
character of a magnanimous leader that we

talk about on Wonder Tour?

Yeah, if I had a pet that I could turn off
whenever I didn't feel like dealing with

it, that would not be the experience of
being a pet owner and caring for another

creature.

That would not be the same thing.

It would have many of the same attributes,
but it would not accomplish that goal at

all.

So I think that's a good example.

That is incredibly well timed.

I love that.

Yeah, that definitely came through loud
and clear here.

The dogs in the background.

Yeah, I have three dogs, so all of them
just went crazy.

I think my wife came home.

But, so Brian, I wanna hit on one thing
here as we talk about this mountaintop

moment with the emotion suppressing
software because it just sticks out to me.

And you kind of started to talk about it
earlier, but why do we let technology

keep...

putting us in smaller and smaller boxes,
because that's actually what escapism is.

Escapism feels like it's going to allow us
to go somewhere, right?

It feels like it's more divergent, like
there's more outcomes and possibilities

and stuff like that.

But what ends up happening in the long run
is it's convergent.

And it's like the world keeps shrinking
basically, and what you realize is like

the most freedom was actually on the
outside layer in the real world if I had

addressed the problems face on.

versus continuing to practice this
escapism.

Because again, the practice of escapism it
literally is like, we have a big box,

okay?

Like I live in this big ecosystem, let's
call it a box or a dome or whatever,

right?

I'm going to partition off like this tiny
space within here and I'm going to put a

box around this.

So now everything outside of this box I am
protected from.

And it's like if you start practicing that
even inside of the Oasis, you're like,

well, I'm not going to go to that part of
the Oasis now because I had a bad

experience there.

And you just keep going smaller and
smaller and it just shrinks your world.

That's amazing.

Now I love this image, right?

Escapism is not getting out.

Escapism is getting farther in.

Escapism is closing off elements of
reality that you don't wanna deal with,

right?

And you can, and it feels bigger and more
open, right?

I can go run around the Fortnite world and
you know, the Fortnite world is somewhat

geographically limited, but there's a lot
of options of what to do.

And like, oh, anyway, I don't have to deal
with all the crap in my personal life.

I can just go shoot people with a shotgun,
right?

But it's, but yeah, but I'm...

By doing that, I'm buying into a very
limited set of rules and options and a

very limited set of interactions with
other people.

Like, I can have, you know, the structure
of the game forces a lot of what I do and

I can have fun little chat interactions on
the side, but it's still, it's fairly

limited.

I can basically only have chat
interactions.

I can't, you know, I can't have a beer
with somebody in the sunshine and play

Fortnite with them at the same time.

I kind of have to decide.

So, yeah, that's, I love that sense.

So, I think you answered your own
question, right?

Yeah, why do we do this?

What's, why do we use technology for
escapism?

It's that, it's that comfort of there are
fewer variables.

You know, I know what the rules are in
here and I know that it's the bad things

that happened to me, it's limited how bad
they're going to be.

I'll be frustrated and throw my controller
across the room.

Oh man, that...

We're already getting into it here in the
Wonder Tour 100s.

That was awesome.

That's a classic Wonder Tour moment.

I can tell right there that we can kind of
come back to and iterate on.

It's almost the opposite of our big world,
small world, right, where we talk about

how you, those of us who are like longing
for an impact that we start out maybe like

Belle in Beauty and the Beast in this
small world at the beginning, wishing for

something more, something bigger, an
opportunity to come where we can be.

the hero or we can help the hero in the
hero's journey to actually like transform

the world around us to achieve more
freedom for more people or whatever our

personal mission is.

But here we're seeing escapism is actually
like the inversion of that.

It's going backwards.

It's like you have the big world.

It's laid in front of you.

You take it for granted.

You simplify the dimensions down and
partition off a space to protect yourself,

to become more comfortable.

that I understand, and I'm going to get
good at this.

And we all do that to some extent, but to
buy into somebody else's set of predefined

rules about it and then just go hang out
there, it definitely limits your options.

So I think it's the other thing that, as
you were talking, that just made me think

of is our dojo analogy.

Like, if you're going into the small world
to get better at something so that you can

then go deploy it, if that's your purpose,
it's like, OK, great.

I'm going to polish my skills.

I'm going to go get really good at

you know, whatever these, you know, I'm
going to go, I'm going to take an online

class in Python.

I'm going to get really good at coding
Python.

The point of that is not to get A's in the
online class in Python.

The point of that is to then go be able to
do something, you know, make something

work better in the real world with my new
skills.

So that's, that's again, it all goes back
to purpose.

So, all right, so this is a, actually a
business leadership podcast.

So let's talk about practical applications
of these lessons, right?

What should we do?

Um, you know, and maybe I think our next
episode on Ready Player One, we're going

to talk a lot more about the, this is sort
of the inside out, the escapism version.

We'll talk about the top down version of
applying technology to an organization.

Well, let's talk about how should I think
about using technology in my personal life

or using technology in my business life?

And how should I think about this trap of
escapism, this trap of buying into the

rules of the small world?

Yeah, so when we think about buying into
the rules of a small world, the first

thing that comes to mind is this ever
looming debate currently in 2023 over

virtual work or hybrid work or all back to
the office and all of these things.

And as always with Wondertor, right, we
want to have a more nuanced view than,

well, people are only effective in person
and, or like people are more efficient

when they're, uh, when they're working in
teams online or, and they can prove that

they're more efficient.

Etc.

But for me, I think if you look at the
contrast between like virtual work and

in-person work and the types of
constraints That it potentially puts on

us, you know in-person work, you're going
to have constraints of location You're

gonna have cost constraints potentially
because it might be more costly to have

people be together in person more often
You're also going to have complexities in

terms of jumping from meeting to meeting
You're going to have types of work that

it's not as efficient to have

50 people in the same office working on
some different types of work, right?

Some programmers are going to be, for
example, more effective operating in their

own room with their own six screens in
front of them.

And I know a lot of people like that, but
on the flip side, just like we talked

about, as long as we're operating
virtually, you know, there's a thin layer

that's between everything, but that thin
layer is thicker than it really seems

like, or feels like, and it relationships
struggle to pervade.

the thin layer of Microsoft Teams or Zoom,
more than we probably think.

It's really hard to build a new
relationship with somebody when you've

only ever met them on Teams, isn't it?

Right.

I think that's the, yeah, that's one of
the lessons I think we've definitely seen

is that if you have an established
relationship, you can use technology to

continue that, you know, very effectively.

Like it's much, it's really great to be
able to just have a chat with somebody

very quickly without having to drive
across town and go have a chat with them.

Like that's fabulous.

It's a great improvement on my
relationship with somebody.

I can see their face.

I can show them the thing that I'm working
on.

I can ask them questions.

That's powerful.

But it's not a great way to build a new
relationship like you implied.

It's really hard to get to know somebody
if I've never shared the same air with

them, if I've never had lunch with them
and had a side conversation, if I've never

seen how they're, you know, if they've got
their screen turned off and they've got

their emotion suppressing software turned
on and I don't see how their faces

actually react when the boss presents the
plan and I don't see, you know, it's like

those things are, those nuances are all
very important to getting to understand

someone, to getting to form an actual
relationship with somebody.

And so that...

that balance has got to be somewhere in
the middle.

Again, what is the purpose of the
technology?

If it's to reduce friction, if it's to
reduce inconvenience, if it's to allow me

to talk to somebody that I couldn't see
conveniently, then great.

But I can't use Microsoft Teams to go
inspect on a problem on the production

line.

It's very difficult to get your hands on
something and figure out what's going

wrong or go just observe people and see
where their pain points might actually be.

That's really hard to get.

my new idea to executives when I'm not in
the room with them and can gauge their

reaction and stuff like that.

Right, right.

The interactions are necessarily
shallower.

So yes, they're more efficient, but also
they're less rich.

And they are, and we're buying into the
rules of this little box on my screen.

That is all that I can possibly know about
Drew.

It is and even for us, Brian, just to look
at our own personal example, right?

We worked together for years, not
directly, but you know, in tangents, we

worked together on a lot of things for
years in person.

And then even now, you know, the audience
might see us on video or audio and we're

doing this and recording this online
because we do it generally early in the

morning on Saturday or Sunday or something
like that.

But in reality, we do get together.

We do go try a new restaurant or go get
drinks or something like that because.

We wanna have those rich interactions
where we're able to just riff on each

other and go back and forth.

And that's where a lot of the foundational
material for Wunder Tour comes from.

It's just us having conversations and
realizing, hey, this is the thing we'd

like to learn more about.

Maybe we should wonder about it together.

Right.

Well, and having just having the
experience of observing each other,

problem solving and being, you know,
shared pain and going through some of the

same stuff together.

It's like, Oh, of the 40 people in the
room, there's a couple of people here that

are real kindred spirits that like, we
have really good conversations and we tend

to riff on things that are, you know, that
are similar and we might, or like, Oh,

I've never thought about it like that.

That's really awesome.

I need to hear more about that.

Like those things are again.

even this digital environment, right?

You have 30 people on a Teams meeting,
they're not having nine side

conversations.

They're not observing each other's body
language.

They're not clustering based on the
breakout rooms, like unless you force them

into a breakout room, it's just all those
things are necessarily sanitized and

simpler, paler.

So I think that's a really good example.

I think this, at the high level, like we
said, the question is not, don't use

technology, but what is your purpose?

for technology.

If you're using a thing, you know, like
exactly like you said that you did.

I love that.

Like I'm playing Diablo 2 and just zoom
out a little bit and like, why am I doing

this?

Like, am I still enjoying this?

Am I still getting out of it with the
reason that I started doing it in the

first place?

You know, just check in with yourself
every once in a while, check in with your

usage of technology and you may find that
like, oh, this is, look how much better I

am than I was six months or six weeks or
six hours ago.

This is amazing.

Or you might be like, this is the same
thing that it was for the last three weeks

in a row.

Maybe I should, maybe I should consider
having some richer experiences.

Yeah, so I'm gonna leave us with one
comment on the practical application side

here, and it's just to talk directly about
remote work versus in-person work.

And this is just my perspective on it, but
I think this is where I've come to.

For me, it's not going to be about
dictating.

For most roles, it's not gonna be about
dictating, hey, you need to be in office

five days a week, three days a week,
whatever.

But instead, like you said, Brian, how do
we focus on the purpose?

If the purpose is to accomplish a mission,

If the purpose is to develop relationships
so that we can be more effective, so that

we can feel more meaning in the work that
we're doing so that we can encourage each

other and learn from each other and stuff
like that.

Then yes, there has to be an in-person
component to that to some extent.

And how might we empower the team to
really figure out what's best for them,

but to actually want to do that.

So I think it's up to every leader to
stand up and figure out not, you know,

what is my governance policy exactly going
to be?

That's something that needs to be figured
out in the mid to long term, of course.

But as we navigate this turning point of
work, this intermediary state right now,

where everything is confusing and
ambiguous, instead let's focus on how can

we get the team to be invested into the
mission?

Because if the team is invested in the
mission, if the team's, how might we get

the team to realize the value of those
in-person interactions, then the team's

going to start to seek them out.

You know, I went.

just like most people did totally virtual
for, and again, this is biased towards my

opinion.

So other people might have perfectly valid
and better opinions on this, but I went

perfectly totally virtual at the beginning
of COVID and I was for a long time.

And then as I came back into the office, I
was like, okay, I'll come in like one day

a week, two days a week, three days a
week.

And now it's like, you know, I was in,
yesterday was a Friday, I was in the

office.

I hadn't been in the office in a Friday in
a long time, but it's like, I'm just

starting to kind of go in every day for
the most part, not because I'm being told

to.

Not because the organization governance
said I need to, but because I'm feeling

the effectiveness of it.

I'm feeling like it provides more meaning
for me.

And so I can sacrifice that hour and a
half commute each day in order to be a

part of that.

But again, that's for everybody to figure
out.

So I know as leaders are navigating this
everywhere, I just wanna put it out there.

What if instead of being a push mechanism
like governance, it's just a pull

mechanism of governance.

Let's try to help people to find what's
best for them and then to figure out

what's logical governance for them.

Yeah, yeah, examine your purpose and run
the experiment and see what works.

That's really great.

All right.

Well, I think that's a good place to leave
this one.

Um, so for this episode, ready player one,
we examined it from sort of the individual

viewpoint, the trap of escapism and the
challenge of examining your purpose.

So for our next episode, we're going to
continue with ready player one, but we're

going to talk about it from an
organizational viewpoint and deploying

technology across an organization.

How do we think about purpose in that
context?

What is the traps there?

I'm looking forward to that conversation
as well.

Yeah, so let's hit some key takeaways
here, Brian, from the entire episode.

What did we learn from Ready Player One?

I'm gonna start with my number one
learning, which was from you, which is,

the question shouldn't be, what is the
purpose of technology, but what is your

purpose?

Period.

That is, that's amazing.

I love that we got there.

And then the other part that I heard was,
was what you said is, you know, it was

kind of this idea that escapism is not
about going into a bigger environment or

getting away.

Escapism is typically us choosing to get
into a smaller box.

And that's really, I love framing it that
way because it makes it clear what

decision you're making.

So that's super cool.

Yeah, and we talked a little bit about
tech and the law of diminishing returns.

You're turning it up to 11.

It's like the height of these experiences
with tech, we're just going for more and

more dopamine releases, right?

Like in the Diablo example, I need to get
that next big loot drop or whatever, but

it always has to be a bigger and bigger
experience.

Otherwise it doesn't satisfy in the same
way.

So as much as humans tend to always fall
into that trap, knowing about the trap of

the law of diminishing returns is the
first...

It's the first step, hopefully, of falling
into it less often than some people will.

Yes, totally agree.

All right, that's great.

Well, thanks so much for joining us
everyone.

As always, we really enjoyed this
conversation.

We hope you did too.

We'll hope you join us again next week for
Ready Player One, Part Two.

In the meantime, just remember as always,
character is destiny.